What's gone wrong (or right) with sitcoms? Page 4

Quote: Hildegard @ 12th March 2023, 6:48 PM

How do you explain the multi-season hunger Mrs Brown's Boys? It's not to my personal taste but there's been an audience for it. Do sitcoms have to be revolutionary? Can't we just entertain? Surely making people laugh is a public health service these days :D

Yeah, I'm not a fan of it (even my mum and dad who previously liked it haven't liked the last few), but I'm still pleased of its success it has had, it means that studio comedy still does have legs, but definitely need a new big one.

While not really billed as a sitcom (more a farce/spoof), but Goes Wrong Show too. It feels like an amped up sitcom, and that's pretty good (IMO of course).

Quote: Feeoree @ 14th March 2023, 11:02 AM

Yeah, I'm not a fan of it (even my mum and dad who previously liked it haven't liked the last few), but I'm still pleased of its success it has had, it means that studio comedy still does have legs, but definitely need a new big one.

While not really billed as a sitcom (more a farce/spoof), but Goes Wrong Show too. It feels like an amped up sitcom, and that's pretty good (IMO of course).

Both breaking the 4th wall - as did Miranda
I think this is quite telling - as if the standard studio sitcom needs some sort of post-modern, ironic wink at the audience to feel up-to-date.

Quote: Lazzard @ 14th March 2023, 12:41 PM

Both breaking the 4th wall - as did Miranda
I think this is quite telling - as if the standard studio sitcom needs some sort of post-modern, ironic wink at the audience to feel up-to-date.

None of this is helping someone studying an MA in comedy screenwriting feel like they've made the right choice 😂

Quote: Hildegard @ 14th March 2023, 1:09 PM

None of this is helping someone studying an MA in comedy screenwriting feel like they've made the right choice 😂

What are you talking about?
You're getting some good material here.
Bloody gold-dust, mate

Quote: Lazzard @ 14th March 2023, 1:15 PM

What are you talking about?
You're getting some good material here.
Bloody gold-dust, mate

😂😂😂❤️

Right. My pet subject. I've been wondering whether, and to what extent, to throw my oar in. I've spent many, many hours debating the subject with writers, producers, fans and commissioners, and have a lot of thoughts and insight. There are many, many issues at play in the loss of the traditional studio audience sitcom, which have played differently at different times and at different broadcasters. I'll hold back from sharing a full thesis/rant and just make a number of salient points in relation to some things that've already been raised.

There is definitely a certain political element at work in the changes in narrative comedy style, but I agree with gappy that the way Alfred is approaching it as a left-right divide isn't entirely accurate - it's more social. I would argue it far more appropriate to look at the style of comedy itself than whether a character might tick some diversity box. Particularly, there has been a wider cultural shift that has seen anything mainstream - not just in comedy - increasingly decried, and a concerted deconstruction of working class tastes and opinions. Pertinent examples at the top of society: Emily Thornberry's flag-waving van drivers and Gordon Brown's "bigoted woman".

Comments about the differing costs of comedy formats are interesting, but often miss the mark slightly. At all broadcasters, but particularly in the case of the BBC, it's not a simple choice of "oh panel shows are cheap so I'll commission Would I Lie To You? rather than X", as they come from different teams. The comedy commissioners deal solely with scripted titles: that is, sitcoms, comedy dramas and sketch shows. Panel shows, variety, stand-up and other formats are commissioned by the entertainment department. It would be accurate to then go a level up above those departments and criticise the channel bosses, who determine the budgets and number of slots available to each team.

The massive uptick in writer-performers, and associated decline in writer-writers, has also been noted. This is ultimately down to money. There's too much of it. Television is expensive to make - it's filmic-quality look and style, but without the means to fund it (i.e. hefty international box office takings etc). Amongst the knock-on effects of this are a tendency to avoid any form of risk and opt for known quantities (despite all the evidence that these known quantities are in other fields and don't necessarily translate to TV/narrative comedy). If someone has X-million followers on TikTok or sells out X-thousand tickets on a stand-up tour, there's seen to be an established audience for them and thus lower risk to put them on screen - often as the leading, driving talent, not just a face.

These and many other factors all lead to devaluing and undermining the idea of entertainment. This is the ultimate crux. Narrative comedy is no longer seen as a means of entertainment first and foremost, but of art, telling a specific message, conveying a story or a meaning.

We can begin to see this just thinking back over some of the titles cited in the last few pages. Porridge, Fawlty Towers, etc - yes, they were telling stories, but they were heavily character driven, putting those characters in different situations each week and exploring their adventures for the entertainment of the viewer. There were shows featuring women prominently (Birds Of A Feather), or the middle class (Bless This House), older people (One Foot In The Grave), the working class (Love Thy Neighbour), the upper class (To The Manor Born), or ethnic minorities (The Fosters), left-wing (Citizen Smith), right-wing (err... Terry & June?), northerners (The Dustbinmen), Londoners (Only Fools And Horses) or young people (Man About The House) - a real diversity of character backgrounds and settings that is far greater than offered by contemporary television - but all focused on characters very squarely.

By contrast, there is a tendency today for sitcom to be more about telling a specific story, or portraying a specific viewpoint (and this is how they fast become more comedy drama). How many times have we read about a stand-up being commissioned to write and star in a "semi-autobiographical" new show?

Think about the classics. The shows that are still celebrated as iconic and still-watched, 40+ years since they were made. With a few outliers, they almost all portray and explore archetypes. Broad characterisations that we recognise part of, to a greater or lesser extent, in ourselves or in our families, colleagues and friends. Flaws that feel particularly British traits. Now think to modern comedy. No matter how much or little you may have enjoyed them or laughed to them, to what extent can you point at that sort of level of identification? I love Rose Matafeo's Starstruck, for example. It's a lovely, warm world. But it rarely makes me laugh, and I certainly can't identify particularly closely to any of the characters or situations. I feel more connected to The Liver Birds.

Both types of show are valid and should exist - not one at the expense of the other.

Remember, if Shakespeare were alive today he'd be writing something akin to Mrs. Brown's Boys, and if Chaucer were he'd be writing some new Carry On films. The origins and legacy of British culture and entertainment are in the broad mainstream: broadcast comedy has totally forgotten its heritage, and eschews its (potential) audience accordingly.

Phew 😉

Read it through now, and will read again as there is a lot to take in, most of which I agree with on first glance.

Looking forward to other peep's reactions.

Quote: Aaron @ 14th March 2023, 3:54 PM

Right. My pet subject. I've been wondering whether, and to what extent, to throw my oar in. I've spent many, many hours debating the subject with writers, producers, fans and commissioners, and have a lot of thoughts and insight. There are many, many issues at play in the loss of the traditional studio audience sitcom, which have played differently at different times and at different broadcasters. I'll hold back from sharing a full thesis/rant and just make a number of salient points in relation to some things that've already been raised.

There is definitely a certain political element at work in the changes in narrative comedy style, but I agree with gappy that the way Alfred is approaching it as a left-right divide isn't entirely accurate - it's more social. I would argue it far more appropriate to look at the style of comedy itself than whether a character might tick some diversity box. Particularly, there has been a wider cultural shift that has seen anything mainstream - not just in comedy - increasingly decried, and a concerted deconstruction of working class tastes and opinions. Pertinent examples at the top of society: Emily Thornberry's flag-waving van drivers and Gordon Brown's "bigoted woman".

Comments about the differing costs of comedy formats are interesting, but often miss the mark slightly. At all broadcasters, but particularly in the case of the BBC, it's not a simple choice of "oh panel shows are cheap so I'll commission Would I Lie To You? rather than X", as they come from different teams. The comedy commissioners deal solely with scripted titles: that is, sitcoms, comedy dramas and sketch shows. Panel shows, variety, stand-up and other formats are commissioned by the entertainment department. It would be accurate to then go a level up above those departments and criticise the channel bosses, who determine the budgets and number of slots available to each team.

The massive uptick in writer-performers, and associated decline in writer-writers, has also been noted. This is ultimately down to money. There's too much of it. Television is expensive to make - it's filmic-quality look and style, but without the means to fund it (i.e. hefty international box office takings etc). Amongst the knock-on effects of this are a tendency to avoid any form of risk and opt for known quantities (despite all the evidence that these known quantities are in other fields and don't necessarily translate to TV/narrative comedy). If someone has X-million followers on TikTok or sells out X-thousand tickets on a stand-up tour, there's seen to be an established audience for them and thus lower risk to put them on screen - often as the leading, driving talent, not just a face.

These and many other factors all lead to devaluing and undermining the idea of entertainment. This is the ultimate crux. Narrative comedy is no longer seen as a means of entertainment first and foremost, but of art, telling a specific message, conveying a story or a meaning.

We can begin to see this just thinking back over some of the titles cited in the last few pages. Porridge, Fawlty Towers, etc - yes, they were telling stories, but they were heavily character driven, putting those characters in different situations each week and exploring their adventures for the entertainment of the viewer. There were shows featuring women prominently (Birds Of A Feather), or the middle class (Bless This House), older people (One Foot In The Grave), the working class (Love Thy Neighbour), the upper class (To The Manor Born), or ethnic minorities (The Fosters), left-wing (Citizen Smith), right-wing (err... Terry & June?), northerners (The Dustbinmen), Londoners (Only Fools And Horses) or young people (Man About The House) - a real diversity of character backgrounds and settings that is far greater than offered by contemporary television - but all focused on characters very squarely.

By contrast, there is a tendency today for sitcom to be more about telling a specific story, or portraying a specific viewpoint (and this is how they fast become more comedy drama). How many times have we read about a stand-up being commissioned to write and star in a "semi-autobiographical" new show?

Think about the classics. The shows that are still celebrated as iconic and still-watched, 40+ years since they were made. With a few outliers, they almost all portray and explore archetypes. Broad characterisations that we recognise part of, to a greater or lesser extent, in ourselves or in our families, colleagues and friends. Flaws that feel particularly British traits. Now think to modern comedy. No matter how much or little you may have enjoyed them or laughed to them, to what extent can you point at that sort of level of identification? I love Rose Matafeo's Starstruck, for example. It's a lovely, warm world. But it rarely makes me laugh, and I certainly can't identify particularly closely to any of the characters or situations. I feel more connected to The Liver Birds.

Both types of show are valid and should exist - not one at the expense of the other.

Remember, if Shakespeare were alive today he'd be writing something akin to Mrs. Brown's Boys, and if Chaucer were he'd be writing some new Carry On films. The origins and legacy of British culture and entertainment are in the broad mainstream: broadcast comedy has totally forgotten its heritage, and eschews its (potential) audience accordingly.

Absolutely agree with all of that. And as an older, working class woman I'm tired of only seeing myself represented as some kind of mad drudge, or even worse, played by a bloke :D

I'm attempting to give voice to women like me in what I write but, being an aforementioned 'older' woman, I don't always hold up much hope of getting anywhere before I shuffle off for the long sleep.

Stacey Guthrie - looking on the bright side since 1965

Thanks Aaron and Hildegard for injecting life and pertinent observation to a vexed subject.

And a 'sitcom' which encapsulates much of what was mentioned in the lecture above :) ie. story based, filmic and expensive to make (have you ever seen that many extras in a TV sitcom before?) cancelled after one series. That's the definition of a flop, yet another to add to growing list, a phenomenon I'd say only began this century.

More proof that something is wrong with modern sitcoms. Why not just go back to the model that hardly ever saw a sitcom cancelled after one series?

And was relatively cheap to make.

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 15th March 2023, 9:12 AM

And a 'sitcom' which encapsulates much of what was mentioned in the lecture above :) ie. story based, filmic and expensive to make (have you ever seen that many extras in a TV sitcom before?) cancelled after one series. That's the definition of a flop, yet another to add to growing list, a phenomenon I'd say only began this century.

More proof that something is wrong with modern sitcoms. Why not just go back to the model that hardly ever saw a sitcom cancelled after one series?

And was relatively cheap to make.

Which sitcom are you referring to?

Quote: Aaron @ 14th March 2023, 3:54 PM

These and many other factors all lead to devaluing and undermining the idea of entertainment. This is the ultimate crux. Narrative comedy is no longer seen as a means of entertainment first and foremost, but of art, telling a specific message, conveying a story or a meaning.

Reality and Bake-Off/Strictly style shows have usurped them.
That's where people get 'entertainment' from now - they are filling the prime-time slots in the schedule.
These kind of programs have proliferated in the last 25 years - they offer more opportunity for 'digital content', 'extras' and audience engagement.
I loathe them - but you can't deny their power.
Comedy is pushed to the peripheral - and is probably being written for (and by?) that peripheral audience.
We're now in a situation where you need something really corking to break through - a new Vicar of Dibley.
I just don't see the quality - the last thing we need is another Green, Green Grass of Home
We need Del Boy falling through a bar hatch.
But I think only undeniable, impossible-to-ignore, gold-plated quality will drag it back into the mainstream (possibly with proper celeb attachment) - there's too much inertia otherwise, and so many other, simpler options open to commissioners.
And I don't know where that quality is going to come from.

Quote: Lazzard @ 15th March 2023, 10:05 AM

Reality and Bake-Off/Strictly style shows have usurped them.
That's where people get 'entertainment' from now - they are filling the prime-time slots in the schedule.
These kind of programs have proliferated in the last 25 years - they offer more opportunity for 'digital content', 'extras' and audience engagement.
I loathe them - but you can't deny their power.

This is a good point.

Interestingly, soap operas (another type of cheap narrative storytelling) have also suffered a decline from where they were twenty or thirty years ago. Much like sitcoms they used to dominate the schedules and were the most watched shows, but now they're very much on the wane. Possibly another casualty of what Lazzard outlines above.

Quote: Lazzard @ 15th March 2023, 10:05 AM

Reality and Bake-Off/Strictly style shows have usurped them.
That's where people get 'entertainment' from now - they are filling the prime-time slots in the schedule.

Which is the chicken and which is the egg? New Faces, Opportunity Knocks, Come Dancing - all were big hits alongside popular mainstream comedy in decades past.

Quote: Lazzard @ 15th March 2023, 10:05 AM

But I think only undeniable, impossible-to-ignore, gold-plated quality will drag it back into the mainstream (possibly with proper celeb attachment) - there's too much inertia otherwise, and so many other, simpler options open to commissioners.
And I don't know where that quality is going to come from.

A cultural shift needs to happen within broadcasters. Hits don't magic from nowhere. Many of the most lauded sitcoms had lacklustre first (and sometimes second) series. Some only narrowly scraped a recommission. Del Boy fell through the bar in year 9 (Series 6). They need to give comedies the support and the chance to become huge successes.

(I'm not disagreeing, just adding the point.)