Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 12th March 2023, 8:16 AM

No I mean a sitcom that does what sitcom is supposed to do, make people laugh with big characters getting into a mess of their own making. The majority of so called sitcoms of the last decade that I've watched don't manage this and many don't even try.

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I'm afraid I still don't really understand. Which sitcoms from the last decade haven't been about big characters getting into a mess of their own making? Peep Show? Fleabag? Man Down? Not Going Out? Miranda? Toast of London? The Inbetweeners? Actually, maybe some of those aren't from the last decade. God, I'm old.

If you just mean that no sitcoms on the last decade have made you personally laugh, then that's fair enough. Comedy is a subjective medium after all. For the record, only three or four of those shows I just listed made me laugh. And possibly only three or four are from the last decade. But to suggest that sitcoms are no longer trying to be funny seems a bit odd.

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 12th March 2023, 7:59 AM

Only in the sense that political correctness and diversity drive the criteria for what's broadcast now. And yes, that is a left leaning agenda.

Just look at what's mostly being made now, shows with a far more diverse mix of characters and more female lead characters; with societal issues such as drug abuse, asylum seeking, single parenthood, same sex partnerships, all things on the left of the socio political scale.

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I also don't really understand this. Is having female characters 'left leaning'? Was Keeping Up Appearances left wing? Or Birds of a Feather? Or The Liver Birds?

As for the rest of it, sitcoms have very often reflected contemporary social matters. In the past it would often revolve around the class system, or climbing the social ladder, or dealing with life on the dole. But social issues move on, and so does TV. That's not new.

There's obviously been a push for more inclusion and diversity recently, but I don't think there's some grand conspiracy where the BBC (and, presumably, all other sitcom makers) are sitting on some vast stockpile of incredible scripts and refusing to commission them because the main character isn't a black trans genderqueer asylum seeker. A great script is still a great script. The problem is that its incredibly difficult to get said great script in front of the right person at the right time for anything to ever be made of it. Especially for us beginners. (I'll skip over the other problem of actually writing said great script in the first place. Obviously all of mine are incredible and in no way derivative, unfunny or boring).

So I'd still like to support SOS, but I'm not sure what I'm supporting. Apart from writing to the BBC to demand that they make more sitcoms that will get ten million viewers. Which is probably something they're trying to do already.

Quote: Lazzard @ 12th March 2023, 1:05 PM

Blackadder launched 40 years ago, The Office 22 years.
Time flies by.
Anyone under 30-ish wouldn't have seen them first time round.

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But are very likely to have seen them now, if they only watch TV through the iplayer.

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 12th March 2023, 1:35 PM

But are very likely to have seen them now, if they only watch TV through the iplayer.

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Only if they seek them out.
That's the whole point of streaming.

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 12th March 2023, 12:55 PM

There's bound to be one in that grim The Cleaner thing.

You're telling me they haven't watched Blackadder or The Office? How young are they, 3?

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Loads of under thirties I've spoken to have never heard of Blackadder, let alone seen it. More have heard of The Office, but quite a lot of those have never actually seen it. Sadly a lot of the shows that mean such a lot to us mean nothing to younger generations.

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 12th March 2023, 1:35 PM

But are very likely to have seen them now, if they only watch TV through the iplayer.

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An awful lot of older sitcoms look incredibly dated now, with low production values, which is another reason gen z or even millenials probably won't bother with them.

[quote name="Crindy" post="1263582" date="12th March 2023, 1:24 PM"]
I also don't really understand this. Is having female LEAD characters OR FEMALE GROUP BASED SITCOMS 'left leaning'? MY CAPITALS

Yes it is indeed for sociologists who make studies of these things, it just happens to be that girl power or female emancipation and leveling up with men is put into the left of the spectrum for academic purposes. Rightly or wrongly, it just is. Any equality striving project is of the left, the status quo is thought to be too imbalanced or geared to the right of centre, male dominated capitalism therefore any levelling up must be of the left. Standard academic sociology.

Was Carla Lane writing just for her own pay packet as if just doing any old day job? Not at all, even if she didn't want to be known for doing her bit for women script writers (which she did) the feminist academics didn't give her a choice. Yes those shows would all be, in a very academically categorised way, of the left.

Your 'left leaning agenda' description seems fairly meaningless as it could also be used to describe any with mainly working class people (Only Fools, Likely Lads) or even any sitcoms featuring characters who aren't married. Which is basically most sitcoms.

On studio sitcoms/more traditional feeling shows:

I do think they need to do more, though most don't last too long these days.

While comedy has moved on to more audience-less/single camera/film-y, and I'll be honest a lot of the time I prefer that, I don't think the studio sitcom with the laughing audience is dead, it just needs a new hit.
No Going Out is nearing 20 years since its debut, Mrs Brown's Boys is 10 this year and before that existed in various forms of media since the 90's. Miranda was recent(ish) but over, Upstart Crow is more recent but seems to also be over, currently. Kate and Koji was more recent but cancelled after 2 series.

I imagine the main key will be inter-generational audience (and possibly inter-generational cast), it's something people in the comedy sphere have been talking about. Something that will appeal to kids and old people alike, it's the audiences the classics had - to use examples from my childhood/teen years, EVERYONE watched Only Fools, One Foot in the Grave, Keeping Up Appearances (OFAH is a show that started before I was born and had it's last full special when I was nearly 20!).

Problem is, in the age of streaming and countless satellite/cable channels, they'd need to catch lightning in a bottle.

Quote: Lazzard @ 12th March 2023, 9:32 AM

So, the need for this kind of material is fulfilled more than adequately.
Why go to the bother of struggling to make new sitcoms when everybody loves the old sitcoms?
And the very reason they love them is because they (the programmes) are old.

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It's kind of a creative corner they've painted themselves into, putting repeats on, isn't it? A constant ratings winner, sure, but it's not new. And especially at Christmas the papers do like to go on about repeats.

I'm curious as to how the Not Going Out repeats are doing figures wise. Viewing figures outside of the top lot are hard to find. These repeats have been sandwiched between new Casualty and Match of the Day. Might be doing well. And Not Going Out, while the new episodes have dropped in the ratings, is still popular somewhat.

"I imagine the main key will be inter-generational audience (and possibly inter-generational cast), it's something people in the comedy sphere have been talking about. Something that will appeal to kids and old people alike, it's the audiences the classics had - to use examples from my childhood/teen years, EVERYONE watched Only Fools, One Foot in the Grave, Keeping Up Appearances"

Well, they're bonkers.
That's like wanting to bring back people gathering round the piano and singing.
Families come together to watch talent shows, and thats about it.
And they do that because they are time sensitive - if you don't watch live you're behind the curve.
On-screen entertainment is now more akin to Deliveroo - everyone gets their own favourite and scurries off into a corner to eat.
We can bemoan it as much as we want ( I do, a bit) but without some sort of massive behavioural upheaval, it ain't happening.
And if it does, it won't be a sitcom that brings about the revolution.

Quote: Lazzard @ 12th March 2023, 4:49 PM

"I imagine the main key will be inter-generational audience (and possibly inter-generational cast), it's something people in the comedy sphere have been talking about. Something that will appeal to kids and old people alike, it's the audiences the classics had - to use examples from my childhood/teen years, EVERYONE watched Only Fools, One Foot in the Grave, Keeping Up Appearances"

Well, they're bonkers.
That's like wanting to bring back people gathering round the piano and singing.
Families come together to watch talent shows, and thats about it.
And they do that because they are time sensitive - if you don't watch live you're behind the curve.
On-screen entertainment is now more akin to Deliveroo - everyone gets their own favourite and scurries off into a corner to eat.
We can bemoan it as much as we want ( I do, a bit) but without some sort of massive behavioural upheaval, it ain't happening.
And if it does, it won't be a sitcom that brings about the revolution.

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I don't mean them gathering round to watch at the same time, haha. I just meant having a sitcom that appeals to a broader age range.

I doubt anyone would *ever* gather like that any more (except bar Christmas day, and even Christmas Day overnights are drab except for the Gavin and Stacey return), in this day and age it's never really about catching it live - people either catch up or are binging it.

Quote: Feeoree @ 12th March 2023, 5:21 PM

I don't mean them gathering round to watch at the same time, haha. I just meant having a sitcom that appeals to a broader age range.

I doubt anyone would *ever* gather like that any more (except bar Christmas day, and even Christmas Day overnights are drab except for the Gavin and Stacey return), in this day and age it's never really about catching it live - people either catch up or are binging it.

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Right - sorry - wrong end of the stick!

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 11th March 2023, 9:40 AM

That may be for established writers with credits, but we both know there are hundreds of unknowns desperate to get their scripts commissioned on TV or even radio. And they currently have more chance of shagging Taylor Swift. (Or winning the lottery)

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I shagged Taylor Swift, it was underwhelming.

Quote: Lazzard @ 11th March 2023, 9:47 AM

But that's because they're unknown.
Or, to be brutally honest, not very good.

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Not all of us are not very good, surely? The well-knowns were unknowns before they became well-knowns....

Quote: Lazzard @ 12th March 2023, 4:49 PM

"I imagine the main key will be inter-generational audience (and possibly inter-generational cast), it's something people in the comedy sphere have been talking about. Something that will appeal to kids and old people alike, it's the audiences the classics had - to use examples from my childhood/teen years, EVERYONE watched Only Fools, One Foot in the Grave, Keeping Up Appearances"

Well, they're bonkers.
That's like wanting to bring back people gathering round the piano and singing.
Families come together to watch talent shows, and thats about it.
And they do that because they are time sensitive - if you don't watch live you're behind the curve.
On-screen entertainment is now more akin to Deliveroo - everyone gets their own favourite and scurries off into a corner to eat.
We can bemoan it as much as we want ( I do, a bit) but without some sort of massive behavioural upheaval, it ain't happening.
And if it does, it won't be a sitcom that brings about the revolution.

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How do you explain the multi-season hunger Mrs Brown's Boys? It's not to my personal taste but there's been an audience for it. Do sitcoms have to be revolutionary? Can't we just entertain? Surely making people laugh is a public health service these days

Personally I feel that the BBC aren't investing as much in comedy as they could. For instance I went to a webinar the other day about a Writers Room for disabled and neurodivergent writers. I was more than half way through it when I found out it wasn't for comedy. The signposted me to the comedy commissioning page instead. There's nothing apart from the bursaries and you have to have a credit to apply. Nothing about writers rooms or anything - I mean I might have missed it because I'm neurodivergent but it feels like everything's about the drama.

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 12th March 2023, 1:50 PM

Yes it is indeed for sociologists who make studies of these things, it just happens to be that girl power or female emancipation and leveling up with men is put into the left of the spectrum for academic purposes. Rightly or wrongly, it just is. Any equality striving project is of the left, the status quo is thought to be too imbalanced or geared to the right of centre, male dominated capitalism therefore any levelling up must be of the left. Standard academic sociology.

Was Carla Lane writing just for her own pay packet as if just doing any old day job? Not at all, even if she didn't want to be known for doing her bit for women script writers (which she did) the feminist academics didn't give her a choice. Yes those shows would all be, in a very academically categorised way, of the left.

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I'm afraid I still don't understand, but I wish you well with your campaign.

This thread was a really interesting read.

Firstly, I think the "left-leaning" inclusiveness argument is a canard (I mean, it pretty much always is, but that's another story). Commissioners may lean toward shows about different social groups than they once did, but that in itself won't stop people creating traiditonal sit coms, nor will it stop what they write being good. Also, if it's well written, the watcher can enjoy something way outside of their own experience - I was able to watch Desmond's and Porridge, despite having no experience of Guyanese-British culture and no experience of prison life (if it comes to that, I've also never served in the Home Guard nor been stuck on a mining spaceship in the far future, and hotel management doesn't loom large on my CV).

I'd agree with points above that the reasons that TV sit coms are not being made so often are the same reason that sketch shows aren't being made so often: half that they're expensive, and half that they're out of fashion (I appreciate that there's some chicken-and-egg business here, but fashions do ebb and flow). I know that the audience is smaller, with a different demographic, but I always find it interesting to compare radio and TV rosters: a R4 sit come or sketch show costs about the same as a R4 panel or stand-up show, and I think this is one reason why there are more of them.

NB I entirely agree with one of Alfred's original points: lot sof comedians come to the attention of TV people through their stand-up, but then are commissioned to do almost any but stand-up on TV. There's no more reason for believeing that a stand-up's skill can be transferred to writing a good sit com, than it is to assume that Sam Bain could do a tight 10 on LIve at the Apollo.

Quote: gappy @ 13th March 2023, 2:40 PM

NB I entirely agree with one of Alfred's original points: lot sof comedians come to the attention of TV people through their stand-up, but then are commissioned to do almost any but stand-up on TV. There's no more reason for believeing that a stand-up's skill can be transferred to writing a good sit com, than it is to assume that Sam Bain could do a tight 10 on LIve at the Apollo.

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This is very true.
I have it on first-hand, from a now ex-C4 Comedy Commissioner, that on the one hand it's a lot easier to sell up the line, in terms of development money, if you have something to show - ie the guys stand up on Live at the Apollo or their YouTube channel.
But the nightmare is trying to get them to write a 30 min piece of narrative comedy (they ALL want to write their own stuff!).
It takes a lot of man management, apparently.
Mentioning no names but...cough...Stath Lets Flats.