Quote: k tan @ February 13, 2008, 2:23 PMI totally believe that you cannot be taught how to become a good writer, you either are or you are not. Mentoring will probably only improve some parts of your game but not the main bulk.
If you have the talent you will be found out eventually.
I beg to differ.
You can have some amazing ideas & not be as great at writing them down. A comp like this could endorse that.
I agree with you to some degree Leevil. This is of course assuming the mentor has a proven record with good shows behind him/her i.e. not the shows i mentioned before. What good would it be being mentored by somebody who's comedy is not the same type as yours? You may become a writer for Miss Jocelyn!
Quote: k tan @ February 13, 2008, 2:23 PMI totally believe that you cannot be taught how to become a good writer, you either are or you are not. Mentoring will probably only improve some parts of your game but not the main bulk.
If you have the talent you will be found out eventually.
I think a lot of people make the mistake of believing that K Tan.
There's always something to be learned in any trade and writing is no different. I've learned so much in the past three years just by going on writers' forums, so what better than to have a mentor.
I wish I'd known one could be 'trained' in writng decades ago. Who knows, maybe I'd be a TV writer by now 
Quote: k tan @ February 13, 2008, 2:40 PMI agree with you to some degree Leevil. This is of course assuming the mentor has a proven record with good shows behind him/her i.e. not the shows i mentioned before. What good would it be being mentored by somebody who's comedy is not the same type as yours? You may become a writer for Miss Jocelyn!
Hah! True but it's still on the television. As I've said before, and too elaborate, as the writer you have the chance to turn these shows around, they already have the backing, with the time slots and advertising, ect. Every show has potential, even LMJ.
As i said before Leevil, true point!!!
Anway good luck to everyone that does choose to enter!
Mentoring is a great gift.
K Tan, I think you're wrong to presume good writing can't be taught. It has many facets, part art and discipline. The discipline, anyone can master through hard work. And art can be taught. How else do novice writers improve over time?
The key element that producers want is the only thing that can't be passed on and that's 'voice.' That uniqueness that stamps your work with your mark. Although if you're writing for a show like Coronation Street then the ability to blend your writing in with previous writers' scripts is also handy (but that's a seperate point.)
Quote: Charley @ February 13, 2008, 2:37 PMI beg to differ.
You can have some amazing ideas & not be as great at writing them down. A comp like this could endorse that.
that's a very interesting point.
a writer, for me, is someone who can paint a fantastic visual representation of their idea through words.
some of us have great ideas, but are less equipped to convey on paper. Whilst others have average ideas, but are more skilled at representing in written form.
to make a good painting, you need good paint and an ability to paint. And successful writers possess both.
if you are in the former camp (by far the better camp to be) have you considered filming your sketches? your grease sketch was funny. it has an audience. the audience is the internet.
I have come to this thread late so may be missing some points, for which I apologise.
I think good writing can be taught, look at the writers that have come out of the university of east anglias writing courses (I think it is there!) Kazuo Ishiguro and Ian McEwan amoungst them.
Plus simply from a language point of view, grammer and punctuation have rules that can be taught (I'm still learning the basics myself), How to structure a sentence/paragrapth etc can also be learnt.
Quote: jacparov @ February 14, 2008, 11:56 AMI have come to this thread late so may be missing some points, for which I apologise.
I think good writing can be taught, look at the writers that have come out of the university of east anglias writing courses (I think it is there!) Kazuo Ishiguro and Ian McEwan amoungst them.
Plus simply from a language point of view, grammer and punctuation have rules that can be taught (I'm still learning the basics myself), How to structure a sentence/paragrapth etc can also be learnt.
It's true that the nuts and bolts of writing can be taught but unfortunately what can't be taught is creativity. If you're not born with that particular gene that drives you to tell stories and make people laugh, then you'll never write comedy well. Same goes for artists etc. You can't be taught how to draw. An art teacher can only mould and improve an existing talent. You can't create it from nothing unfortunately. The old adage "Everyone has at least one book inside them" is, I fear, a load of old balls.
Quote: Perry Nium @ February 14, 2008, 12:11 PMIt's true that the nuts and bolts of writing can be taught but unfortunately what can't be taught is creativity. If you're not born with that particular gene that drives you to tell stories and make people laugh, then you'll never write comedy well. Same goes for artists etc. You can't be taught how to draw. An art teacher can only mould and improve an existing talent. You can't create it from nothing unfortunately. The old adage "Everyone has at least one book inside them" is, I fear, a load of old balls.
I disagree. There is no elite born with magic powers to write well; god does not hand gifts out to new borns of plumbing ability, doctoring ability, writing ability, etc. People decide what they want to do, learn how to do it, and then do it. Some might have a greater aptitude or a better attitude so they'll progress more quickly but it's not beyond anyone's reach.
Even if the magic powers theory was true - by ignoring it and working hard you will achieve the same result. I really wouldn’t want anyone to give up on their dream because they don’t seem to have the 'gift' when all they have do is learn their craft and work harder.
Talent is irrelevant, whether it's innate or not, to producing a quality script.
Harry Potter can come along and wave his magic wand and say, “excellentia scribo” and a quality script will suddenly appear because Harry was born with the talent to do so.
To my considerable disappointment I'm not a wizard and so I have to get that quality script the hard way by learning my craft and working hard on the pre-writing, writing and re-writing.
If at the end of the day both Harry and myself have quality scripts, I don't see why it matters which method is used. But I'm going to guess that using my method is much more common among writers than using a 'gift'.
To quote Stephen King: “Talent is cheaper than table salt. What separates the talented individual from the successful one is a lot of hard work.”
Everyone does have a book or script in them, but it's up to them how much work they wanna do to make sure it's a good book or script.
Mamet says the thing re: stephen king "no such thing as talent, just hard work"
Quote: Robin Kelly @ February 14, 2008, 12:45 PMTalent is irrelevant, whether it's innate or not, to producing a quality script.
Do you really believe that? So you don't believe there's any such thing as "born leaders", "born dancers", "born artists" etc? Surely you can't be saying that creativity can be taught in a class? My mate's wife has been doing art night classes for months and months. She enjoys it and finds it relaxing and that's all that's important, but she still can't draw well, and never will be able to.
There's a natural, innate ability common among great comedy writers and that's timing. It's almost like a musical thing, like a composer writing a piece of music. You can tell that they instinctively FEEL when the time's right to crescendo or whatever. You can't teach that. You could take somebody off the street who's never touched a piano, and after time and effort you could teach that person to play Flight Of The Bumblebee note perfect. But you couldn't teach them to compose something as wonderful. Not if they're not naturally creative.
I believe that there's certainly people who are born with natural ability. I put it down to the way that signals are transmitted through their brains and interpreted. So, I see it as being genetic.
Although, you can obviously train yourself most things, but some will find it harder than others.
I think Perry that you are gifted, not only at comedy but as to how to write/put it across.
There are others who are very funny but don't know how to put it across, so a writing course etc would teach them how to do this.
My hubby would have been an excellent stand-up (the Jacky Mason type)but has no idea how to write a sitcom for instance, nor has he bothered to find out.
Quote: bushbaby @ February 14, 2008, 2:28 PMI think Perry that you are gifted, not only at comedy but as to how to write/put it across.
There are others who are very funny but don't know how to put it across, so a writing course etc would teach them how to do this.
My hubby would have been an excellent stand-up (the Jacky Mason type)but has no idea how to write a sitcom for instance, nor has he bothered to find out.
God I wasn't including myself as a "gifted" writer, bush! I'm talking about the true greats. The point I'm trying to make is that without a natural flair, however small, there's no foundation to build upon and therefore it can't be taught.
Or I could be talking knackers. I honestly don't think so though. I think it's as black and white as, say, Jade Goody never getting into MENSA. It's just never going to happen.