Quote: Hildegard @ 27th October 2023, 12:23 AM

So, we should let TRAs post lies and not respond? I'm struggling to see where you're coming from really. If you think people should be quiet about their opinions does that also apply to TRAs? And do me a favour - marginalised community? I've never seen a so-called marginalised community wield so much power 😂 Did you know the word homesexual is now deemed to be transphobic? It's not just women's rights that are being eroded...

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I'm not talking to someone who keeps jumping to conclusions, twisting my words and starting retorts with "so you're saying...." It's not a debate it's a row with an overly aggressive know-it-all. In your eyes your opinion is the correct one and the only one that matters. You couldn't just let my opinions slide which tells me all I need to know and Judging by your earlier statements you're clearly transphobic and don't have a clue about gender identity or the trans community. To label them 'so-called marginalised' and throw around statements like 'gender isn't real' is as ignorant as it is insulting.

The trouble with 'the trans community' is, all you see on any media are the weird ones.
Obvious blokes with tutty on and a dress. How you are supposed to take it seriously - it's just funny.
But if you laugh at the ridiculousness of some of them - you are set upon.

Quote: Definitely Tarby @ 27th October 2023, 11:32 AM

I'm not talking to someone who keeps jumping to conclusions, twisting my words and starting retorts with "so you're saying...." It's not a debate it's a row with an overly aggressive know-it-all. In your eyes your opinion is the correct one and the only one that matters. You couldn't just let my opinions slide which tells me all I need to know and Judging by your earlier statements you're clearly transphobic and don't have a clue about gender identity or the trans community. To label them 'so-called marginalised' and throw around statements like 'gender isn't real' is as ignorant as it is insulting.

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I'm not twisting your words, I'm telling you what I take from what you're saying. I'm asking you to clarify and you can't or won't.

Sex is binary and immutable. We are born male or female. At a cellular level we are either male or female - from our skeleton to our chromosomes we are either male or female, that's just a fact. There are a few outliers who have DSDs (Developmental Sex Disorders) who have abnormalities but they are still male or female. Sex can't be changed with surgery and/or the addition/alteration of external sex organs. Neither can it be changed with HRT. Sex is fixed in the womb.

Gender is societal expectations; girls wear pink, boys wear blue, girls want to be princesses, boys want to be astronauts, girls are naturally caring, boys are naturally independent, girls like dresses and make up, boys like suits and shirts and trousers, girls show their feelings and cry easily, boys don't show their emotions and never cry, girls are passive, boys are assertive and ambitious ....

We know by the unacceptably high level of male suicide that these expectations harm men. Men are trained from birth not to show their emotions because it's not 'masculine' to do so. If some men feel more comfortable adopting the stereotypical behavioural gender expectations for women I think that's to be encouraged. However, it doesn't make him a man. It's toxic masculinity that decrees if a man likes things that are stereotypically 'feminine' he can't be a man anymore, he must be a woman. Why can't men like dresses and make up and still be seen as a man? What's the problem?

Sex and gender are two entirely different things but they're being misused in order to train the public to accept men in female spaces. It's not trans people themselves driving this, it's a subset of virulent misogynistic, homophobic activists.

I'm genuinely interested in your idea of gender but you haven't given it. My third son is non-binary and we have interesting discussions about how he's come to that conclusion. I'm calling him 'he' because whilst I firmly believe that people can identify as whatever they like, I won't participate in compelled speech. I wouldn't feel compelled to say I believe in God because a Christian does and this is no different.

I'd also be really interested in examples of how you think the trans community is marginalised.

Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 27th October 2023, 11:40 AM

The trouble with 'the trans community' is, all you see on any media are the weird ones.

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And there we have the problem.

Not really a topic of interest to me, but the guy who sat next to me on the flight to Los Angeles this morning was wearing lipstick and short shorts. His facial stubble gave him away, however.

Quote: Lazzard @ 27th October 2023, 3:26 PM

And there we have the problem.

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What problem in particular?

Quote: Hildegard @ 27th October 2023, 4:23 PM

What problem in particular?

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The majority of media outlets would rather gain a quick laugh by taking the 'bloke in a frock' angle.
Ridicule is easier than understanding (the latter requires intelligence for a start)
It's also been added to the culture wars 'list' with people who couldn't give a f**k either way - and will, like as not, never meet a trans person - coming up with shite like "Keir Starmer doesn't even know what a woman is".
I've met a few trans people - and they've all been charming.
But that doesn't make for very good headlines.

Quote: Lazzard @ 27th October 2023, 4:55 PM

The majority of media outlets would rather gain a quick laugh by taking the 'bloke in a frock' angle.
Ridicule is easier than understanding (the latter requires intelligence for a start)
It's also been added to the culture wars 'list' with people who couldn't give a f**k either way - and will, like as not, never meet a trans person - coming up with shite like "Keir Starmer doesn't even know what a woman is".
I've met a few trans people - and they've all been charming.
But that doesn't make for very good headlines.

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It's not trans people who are the problem, it's trans rights activists and people pushing the trans ideology. I have trans friends and so do my kids. They're all very nice. The problem comes from what 'trans' means these days. Under the trans umbrella you've got men for whom cross dressing is a sexual paraphila and they're demanding access to female spaces that are sex-segregated by law. If you raise any concerns you get screams of 'transphobe'! another word that has become meaningless. People with genuine gender dysphoria are being harmed as they're getting lumped in with the ones who are just misogynistic and homophobic.
Out of interests how does the no debate aspect of this subject sit with you?

Not sure about the 'no debate' aspect - there seems to plenty.
I'm more interested in the "not taking a hard & fast position and defending it over-aggressively" aspect.
I'm not sure noisy trans-rights activists are exactly helping.
And I know for a fact Graham Linehan isn't, either.

Wow. This has exploded since I last looked. I notice some people have taken a back seat and not get dragged in because they - like Hildegard says - are told what to think.

It's still funny (even though I have trans friends) in the IT Crowd where at the party one of them says "I used to be a man" and Douglas Reynholm says "I don't care if you come from Iran.

Quote: Lazzard @ 27th October 2023, 6:04 PM

Not sure about the 'no debate' aspect - there seems to plenty.
I'm more interested in the "not taking a hard & fast position and defending it over-aggressively" aspect.
I'm not sure noisy trans-rights activists are exactly helping.
And I know for a fact Graham Linehan isn't, either.

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I HATE that f**king edit button - it's so easy to press delete.

Anyway! Keir Starmer won't give you a definition of what a woman is because he knows he'll come under fire from the TRAs and Labour have been courting them for years. I got thrown out of Labour about seven years ago for raising concerns that the secretary, who'd only declared himself a 'woman' a few days ago was now running the women's forum of our CLP. Myself and other women who were uncomfortable with it were all kicked out. Labour lost thousands of women over their willingness to hand women's rights over to men who said they were women. Keir Starmer also thinks cervixes can grow back..

Back to Graham Linehan, he can be bombastic but you'd be hard pushed to disprove anything he says. He's also stuck his head above the parapet in a way that most men won't and I commend him for that. Have you ever looked at his Twitter feed? He gets the same tired abuse whatever he Tweets.

The main problem is that most people aren't aware of what's going on and base it on the trans people they know or have met. Those people aren't the problem, it's the TRAs and the men whose cross dressing is a sexual paraphilia who are the problem. They're demanding everything that women legally have a hard won right to. They want access to all female sex segregated spaces. Most gender critical feminists (or TERFs as we're lovingly called. I especially love the KILL ALL TERFS T-shirts and banners. The only good TERF is a dead TERF being one of my absolute favourites) would have happily campaigned for a third space for trans people but that's not good enough, they want everything we have and more. Every time women gather to discuss their rights, baying mobs of trans activists gather outside or alongside to intimidate them - that's if they haven't managed to get the entire event cancelled. When trans people get together to discuss their rights or to have some kind of Pride event no baying mobs of women turn up and try to drown them out and no women try to get the event cancelled. The latest target is lesbians. Lesbians are under attack for stating they are same sex attracted. Apparently that's transphobic because it doesn't include lesbians with penises ( I never thought that was a phrase I'd have to type). Lesbians who try to organise events for females only are shut down, attacked, intimidated... How is that ok? How is it ok that we're supposed to respect their pronouns but they don't respect ours? I'm not a cis woman, I'm a woman, yet I'm repeatedly told that I have to put up with being called something I don't identify as. Why am I expected to centre people with male bodies in my feminism?

Also, the vast majority of people don't realise that most trans identifying men elect to keep their penises, it's widely assumed that transgender is the same as transsexual - it isn't. Trans identifying males who are in prison have mostly committed sexual violence - and at a statistically higher rate than other men, and yes I can provide statistics for that but it will have to wait till I'm at home.

If you're basing your beliefs on the fact you've met some trans people and they were very nice then you've only got a tiny part of the story. Did you read where I speak about being blacklisted and dumped by my agent? That's happened to hundreds of women - the men tend to be spared, funny that.

Quote: Hildegard @ 26th October 2023, 10:23 PM

I was blacklisted by an extremely high profile casting director for saying I don't believe humans can change sex. I was also dumped by my agent who tried to force me to

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It seems rather counter-productive to put time and effort in to training and experience only to alienate yourself from people in the industry who can open doors. Most actors and writers have worked with people they despise but bite their tongue because doing so is a means to an end. Being passionate about something is admirable but maybe it's better to keep that kind of discussion in a social setting with your army of trans friends and not with people in the industry. I can see how the subject of Linehan would come up but if it was me I would treat it like a job interview. It could be a way of seeing what kind of personality someone has and has nothing to do with their personal views on the subject.

Being accused of 'shitting on the soul of someone's trans child' doesn't sound very supportive and your views on the trans community is blinkered to put it politely. Asking me to evidence how the trans community is marginalised is beyond belief when there are cases of violence and discrimination towards them every day around the world and it's getting worse. I'm sure you're the toast of your trans friends when you tell them that gender isn't real and trans people are not marginalised and then enter a monologue about the whole blue is for boys pink is for girls thing.

I don't hate Graham Linehan I just think he's been very foolish with his approach to what is a very sensitive subject to those involved in it. It's not like there's an epidemic of men who are asking to be treated as female just so they can gain access to women only facilities. There are cases of that but it's so insignificant it didn't need Linehan to shout from the rooftops on Twitter and it speaks volumes that he got him self permanently banned from a platform where basically anything goes. He wasn't banned because of an outcry he was banned because he broke board rules and then compounded it by contacting individuals directly. He could have been going through a crisis or any number of personal reasons for doing what he did but there's no denying that what he did was unhelpful and damaging.

Quote: Definitely Tarby @ 28th October 2023, 3:14 PM

It seems rather counter-productive to put time and effort in to training and experience only to alienate yourself from people in the industry who can open doors. Most actors and writers have worked with people they despise but bite their tongue because doing so is a means to an end. Being passionate about something is admirable but maybe it's better to keep that kind of discussion in a social setting with your army of trans friends and not with people in the industry. I can see how the subject of Linehan would come up but if it was me I would treat it like a job interview. It could be a way of seeing what kind of personality someone has and has nothing to do with their personal views on the subject.

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It wasn't a discussion about Linehan, it was a video posted by a casting director that had been edited to give false information. I was actually trying to be helpful by pointing out that the video wasn't accurate. I didn't know the casting director was anti-women and knew what he was doing. Even if that wasn't the scenario, I find it really distasteful that people shouldn't speak out about injustice for fear of not getting work. Take that to its furthest conclusion and that's how the holocaust happened. If you saw someone post a video that lied about trans people would you point it out or would you stay quiet?

Being accused of 'shitting on the soul of someone's trans child' doesn't sound very supportive and your views on the trans community is blinkered to put it politely. Asking me to evidence how the trans community is marginalised is beyond belief when there are cases of violence and discrimination towards them every day around the world and it's getting worse. I'm sure you're the toast of your trans friends when you tell them that gender isn't real and trans people are not marginalised and then enter a monologue about the whole blue is for boys pink is for girls thing.

I was accused of 'shitting on the soul of someone's trans child' purely because I don't believe that humans can change sex. I'd actually been very supportive of the woman and made it clear that it was none of my business how she brings up her child. She is, however, prone to histrionics.
Could you give me some evidence of the increasing attacks on trans people please? Statistics show that trans is the safest demographic in the UK so I'd be really interested in seeing if/how that's changed so I can make sure I'm up to date.

You still haven't said what you think gender is. The trans people I know are respectful of my views, just as I'm respectful of theirs. They're not demanding to have access to all women's sex segregated spaces though, they're very aware they haven't changed sex and that their experiences and needs are very different to that of women.

I don't hate Graham Linehan I just think he's been very foolish with his approach to what is a very sensitive subject to those involved in it. It's not like there's an epidemic of men who are asking to be treated as female just so they can gain access to women only facilities.

There are enough to have an impact on women's safety. In hospitals and in prisons there have been rapes. And women have lost opportunities and positions to men who claim to be women, despite there being specific opportunities for trans people to ensure they're represented. I have to say I find *your* view on this incredibly blinkered and it would be good to know what you're basing your opinion on.

There are cases of that but it's so insignificant it didn't need Linehan to shout from the rooftops on Twitter and it speaks volumes that he got him self permanently banned from a platform where basically anything goes.

That's not strictly true. There was a very active TRA element backstage at Twitter, people were getting perma bans just for stating they don't believe humans can change sex or that they supported JK Rowling. That's changed since Elon Musk took over. Linehan is also critical of the way children are being fast racked onto a medical route for transition. It's extremely lucrative for drug companies to put children on puberty blockers but research is coming out that shows they have irreversible effects. People who have now reached adulthood are finding that they can't orgasm, are infertile and are suffering a host of irreversible problems. Even the NHS is expressing concern about puberty blockers and their long term effects. Puberty blockers are the same drugs that are used for testicular cancer and the drugs that are used to chemically castrate sexually violent men. One of Linehan's main concerns is that these drugs are being given to children before any long-term studies have been done on their safety.
Recording gender instead of sex is also detrimental to medical science and statistics gathering. Women and men respond differently to some disease and illness. Heart attacks, for example. Skewing that research will lead to diagnoses being missed in both men and women. It also affects the crime statistics. Rape is now being recorded as being committed by women. In years to come, people will wonder why there was a serious spike in female rapists and paedophiles.

He wasn't banned because of an outcry he was banned because he broke board rules and then compounded it by contacting individuals directly. He could have been going through a crisis or any number of personal reasons for doing what he did but there's no denying that what he did was unhelpful and damaging.

I disagree. Lots of women have found it extremely supportive and it's enabled more men to speak out too.

I would really like you to clarify where your information comes from, and especially would like a clarification on what you think gender is.

Edit to add: How far do you go with your "keep quiet so you don't lose work" opinion? Should the staff who get events cancelled because they don't agree with the speaker/performer keep quiet? If not, why not?

Goodness me - lots to read there - or not read. Maybe this shouldn't be a Graham Linehan thread.

Quote: Definitely Tarby @ 28th October 2023, 3:14 PM

It seems rather counter-productive to put time and effort in to training and experience only to alienate yourself from people in the industry who can open doors. Most actors and writers have worked with people they despise but bite their tongue because doing so is a means to an end.

.

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This is all a bit worrying though because this is the way people like Saville got away with things for so long.

Quote: Chappers @ 28th October 2023, 8:39 PM

Goodness me - lots to read there - or not read. Maybe this shouldn't be a Graham Linehan thread.

This is all a bit worrying though because this is the way people like Saville got away with things for so long.

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Exactly. The idea of keeping quiet about something you believe is harmful is so distasteful to me. Whatever anyone thinks of Linehan's views he's put everything on the line to speak out about something he believes is harmful. We need more people like that.
I'd rather never get another acting job again than keep quiet about something I feel is important.