Okay I shall try. Very moot examples and hidden in his trick irony as always, but if you were being as literal as Tokyo was earlier, then I would pick out his characterisation of Mrs Malika for one. Brazenly ambitious, ruthless in her work and desire for recogition, happy to suck up to Wright hoping this'll further her career, yet disgustingly fickle when he's sacked on the spot and she flirts with the Mayor and asks for his job.

All very cartoony, like Benny Hill ironically, and he has two men lusting after her. It's fine for him to write characters doing that but somehow it was heinous for others in the past to? Elton is a confused chap, his famous 'politics' are a bit muddled imo.

The child may be the Father of the man, but Elton's humour has always been like this, just look at The Young Ones, Happy Families, TTBL, and basically anything. When they were collaborating on Blackadder, Richard Curtis was constantly taking out knob gags, Elton has always had a liking for this kind of stuff.

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ May 4 2013, 10:33 AM BST

Okay I shall try. Very moot examples and hidden in his trick irony as always, but if you were being as literal as Tokyo was earlier, then I would pick out his characterisation of Mrs Malika for one. Brazenly ambitious, ruthless in her work and desire for recogition, happy to suck up to Wright hoping this'll further her career, yet disgustingly fickle when he's sacked on the spot and she flirts with the Mayor and asks for his job.

All very cartoony, like Benny Hill ironically, and he has two men lusting after her. It's fine for him to write characters doing that but somehow it was heinous for others in the past to? Elton is a confused chap, his famous 'politics' are a bit muddled imo.

View original

That's all very well but she is a sitcom character with exaggerated flaws and foibles. That's how sitcoms work - every single one of them. Are you seriously suggesting that portrayals of women as anything other than paragons of virtue constitutes sexism?

Quote: Marc P @ May 4 2013, 11:21 AM BST

That's all very well but she is a sitcom character with exaggerated flaws and foibles. That's how sitcoms work - every single one of them.

View original

That's also how sexism and racism works: assuming that characteristics that may have some grounding in truth apply to all people from that group, and are an essential characteristic. It's a very fine line, but in general as you imply it's best to give writers the benefit of the doubt and assume they are not actually racist/sexist/etc. However, Elton has been very quick to accuse others of that crime (and worse: he accused Hill of actively causing rape) so it seems reasonable to hold him to the standards he sets others.

Quote: Tokyo Nambu @ May 4 2013, 11:34 AM BST

That's also how sexism and racism works: assuming that characteristics that may have some grounding in truth apply to all people from that group, and are an essential characteristic. It's a very fine line, but in general as you imply it's best to give writers the benefit of the doubt and assume they are not actually racist/sexist/etc. However, Elton has been very quick to accuse others of that crime (and worse: he accused Hill of actively causing rape) so it seems reasonable to hold him to the standards he sets others.

View original

Is Ben Elton to be held convicted of a few rash statements, statements many others of his generation made too, Rik Mayall et el, who strangely don't seem to be accountable in the same measure? Benny Hill, of whom I am a fan, was sacked by Thames not Ben Elton. It was the climate of the time, but innuendo has always been part of British comedy, and Elton is part of that tradition. Just judge his work on whether it is funny or not. If we were all held accountable for things we said when we were young, few of us would ever leave the house.

No of course I'm not, I have nothing against sexism in comedy, it's the best place for it I've always thought. I'm suggesting Elton is a complete hypocrite for laying into Benny Hill then indulging in as much sexual humour and innuendo as Hill ever did, far more explicitly, and ultimately writing stock female characters in a similar way.

He's enjoying making the same kind of humour Hill did, after assassinating him. Or is that too strong? Why didn't he just join in the fun like he has, and leave the dodgy politicking out of it (like he didn't)? He's made himself look a plonker and he knows it - he even did a Benny Hill tribute show in pennance for it. He knows full well himself now true funny humour needs to play off gender sterotypes, and so much humour comes from man's naughty desires.

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ May 4 2013, 11:48 AM BST

No of course I'm not, I have nothing against sexism in comedy, it's the best place for it I've always thought. I'm suggesting Elton is a complete hypocrite for laying into Benny Hill then indulging in as much sexual humour and innuendo as Hill ever did, far more explicitly, and ultimately writing stock female characters in a similar way.

He's enjoying making the same kind of humour Hill did, after assassinating him. Or is that too strong? Why didn't he just join in the fun like he has, and leave the dodgy politicking out of it (like he didn't)? He's made himself look a plonker and he knows it - he even did a Benny Hill tribute show in pennance for it. He knows full well himself now true funny humour needs to play off gender sterotypes, and so much humour comes from man's naughty desires.

View original

To be fair that was the climate of the time and he was the most famous of the right on comedians. He may be a hypocrite but that is not a capital crime. In my youth I was a communist; I'm not now, you evolve with age, most of us have held views we no longer hold. Let's just stick to what is written, not who is writing it. I hated Elton's stand-up and his delivery in the eighties, but as a writer I admire him, although not the Queen musical. He is a jobbing writer who has the guts to put himself out there, good luck to him.

Quote: Pingl @ May 4 2013, 11:57 AM BST

He is a jobbing writer who has the guts to put himself out there, good luck to him.

View original

I agree with that, nothing wrong with it. But let's also not forget that Hill was just as hard working, but also an inspired origional comic who rightly or wrongly believed in his own brand of humour. If Elton had had the wisdom he now has back when he was forging his career, he'd never have turned on a fellow comedian, especially one for whom work was everything! He rightly regrets it now, but he won't stop other comics forever sniping at him for it.

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ May 4 2013, 12:11 PM BST

I agree with that, nothing wrong with it. But let's also not forget that Hill was just as hard working, but also an inspired origional comic who rightly or wrongly believed in his own brand of humour. If Elton had had the wisdom he now has back when he was forging his career, he'd never have turned on a fellow comedian, especially one for whom work was everything! He rightly regrets it now, but he won't stop other comics forever sniping at him for it.

View original

That is true as well, but as I said it was Thames who sacked Benny after making them a small fortune, I hold them more to blame than Ben Elton, but there is no doubt he was one of many who unfairly singled Hill out.

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ May 4 2013, 11:48 AM BST

No of course I'm not, I have nothing against sexism in comedy, it's the best place for it I've always thought.

View original

Ok, I'm lost now.

Oh, forgot to quote again.

Quote: Marc P @ May 4 2013, 11:21 AM BST

That's all very well but she is a sitcom character with exaggerated flaws and foibles. That's how sitcoms work - every single one of them. Are you seriously suggesting that portrayals of women as anything other than paragons of virtue constitutes sexism?

View original

Quote: Pingl @ May 4 2013, 11:01 AM BST

... When they were collaborating on Blackadder, Richard Curtis was constantly taking out knob gags, Elton has always had a liking for this kind of stuff.

View original

Actually, by Curtis's own admission, all those gags were his, but everyone always thinks they were Elton's.

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ May 4 2013, 12:28 PM BST

Oh, forgot to quote again.

View original

I am saying it isn't sexism!

'Brazenly ambitious, ruthless in her work and desire for recogition, happy to suck up to Wright hoping this'll further her career, yet disgustingly fickle when he's sacked on the spot and she flirts with the Mayor and asks for his job. '

Okay good. Then that means what Benny Hill did was not sexist. It means that it's not sexist to depict bold unflattering cartoon stereotypes of women or to use them as mere objects for mens' lust. (Personally I don't see a problem with it either way.)

Of course some prickly councillor types down the corridor from Gerald Wright would have you believe it was. And maybe Ben Elton of 30 years ago, but not today.

I am still waiting for an example of sexism in the show. Of course my definition of sexism means.. well sexism. I have no idea what you think the word means.