Quote: Lee Henman @ September 13 2009, 12:50 PM BST

No, I mean the population of the world. I'm saying Stephen Fry is more intelligent and talented than the majority of people on this planet. Of course there are people more intelligent, but he's obviously up there above the plebs. To suggest otherwise is stupid in itself, surely. The evidence speaks for itself. He's enormously well-read, a Cambridge graduate, he's been on University Challenge, he has acclaimed performances as Jeeves and Melchett under his belt, he's a columnist, he's written 4 novels, QI is loved by just about everyone, he's massively in-demand as a public speaker, and everyone I know who's met him has remarked on his cleverness as well as his niceness. And he described his IQ score as "approaching genius", which, knowing Fry's modesty will probably mean "genius".

So...yeah.

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None of the things you list is an indicator of above-average wit or talent. Some of them are quite laughable as badges of intelligence: a columnist? Like Richard Littlejohn and Melanie Phillips? Written four novels? Danielle Steele has written 81. Been on University Challenge? You obviously never watch it. Cleverness isn't the same as intelligence is it? In fact clever is exactly what Fry is - with everything that implies - a savant's urge to bottle arcane trivia, like the waistband size of the fattest man in the world or the fact that the Koala bear isn't actually a bear.

As for graduating from Cambridge... That isn't a sign of being more intelligent and talented than 'the majority of the people on Earth', unless you consider Vanessa Feltz, Lloyd Grossman, Konnie Huq, Mel & Sue, Rachel Weisz, Tony Slattery, Terry Waite, Claire Balding, Richard Stilgoe, Carol Vorderman, Princes Charles and numerous other utterly average celebrity performers and public figures to meet the criteria as well.

Quote: Timbo @ September 13 2009, 1:54 PM BST

The Civil Service is largely classless; it would not be class that would have impeded their progress, it would have been their intelligence.

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I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or not by that statement.

Plus this doesn't help -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1555697/UK-one-of-worst-countries-for-social-mobility.html

But we've gone so wildly off topic, that these posts will disappear anyhoo.

Quote: Godot Taxis @ September 13 2009, 2:36 PM BST

As for graduating from Cambridge... That isn't a sign of being more intelligent and talented than 'the majority of the people on Earth', unless you consider Vanessa Feltz, Lloyd Grossman, Konnie Huq, Mel & Sue, Rachel Weisz, Tony Slattery, Terry Waite, Claire Balding, Richard Stilgoe, Carol Vorderman, Princes Charles and numerous other utterly average celebrity performers and public figures to meet the criteria as well.

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Prince Charles is a bit of a special case, but "average celebrity performers and public figures" are not an average cross-section of society. You need above-average ability even to be average within that particular subset. In any case your dismissal of these particular individuals is largely a question of subjective taste rather than an objective assessment of their abilities.

Intelligence is not an easy concept to define, but taking Gardner's theory of multiple intelligences, then I would say that, for instance, Richard Stilgoe is well above the mean average of the UK populace for verbal-linguistic and even musical intelligence, while Voorderperson probably scores quite high on logical-mathematical.

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ September 13 2009, 2:37 PM BST

Plus this doesn't help -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1555697/UK-one-of-worst-countries-for-social-mobility.html

But we've gone so wildly off topic, that these posts will disappear anyhoo.

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Yes class is making a comeback, but, as yet, it is defined primarily in terms of the economic advantages one is able to pass onto one's children, rather than a shared sense of caste identity, as in the 'one of us' mentality. Doubtless as socio-economic barriers become more entrenched that will return.

Back to Stephen Fry, he does play on his toff image, but the fact that this is found entertaining is possibly indicative of a lack of class awareness. It is just an amusing turn, like Frankie Boyle being a professional Scot. (See back on topic.)

Quote: Timbo @ September 13 2009, 3:00 PM BST

Yes class is making a comeback, but, as yet, it is defined primarily in terms of the economic advantages one is able to pass onto one's children, rather than a shared sense of caste identity, as in the 'one of us' mentality. Doubtless as socio-economic barriers become more entrenched that will return.

Back to Stephen Fry, he does play on his toff image, but the fact that this is found entertaining is possibly indicative of a lack of class awareness. It is just an amusing turn, like Frankie Boyle being a professional Scot. (See back on topic.)

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I disagree with you Timbo, it's more then just about money, there are plenty of drug dealers out there who make more then the Chairman of the BBC. Class differention usually indicates not just an economic position in society but also the amount of power that's wielded. But that is a different argument.

I do agree that a major part of Fry's charm is that he comes across as a bumbling, befuddled but intrinsically likeable sort of Toff - much like Boris Johnson. (That's put the cat amongst the penguins!)

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ September 13 2009, 2:01 PM BST

Hmm, let's test out your theory. How many people who run such huge organisations have the words 'Sir, Lord or Dame' in front of their names? And how many of those without any form of official title are multi-millionairres who use their money to define their social standing?

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Have you never seen Yes Minister, where the pre-Sir Humphrey is desperate for a KBE after his many years of loyal civil service, uh, service?

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ September 13 2009, 3:06 PM BST

I do agree that a major part of Fry's charm is that he comes across as a bumbling, befuddled but intrinsically likeable sort of Toff - much like Boris Johnson. (That's put the cat amongst the penguins!)

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Interesting point. Does Fry have any aristocracy in his family line though?

Quote: Aaron @ September 13 2009, 3:30 PM BST

Interesting point. Does Fry have any aristocracy in his family line though?

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I know of at least one queen.

Quote: Aaron @ September 13 2009, 3:30 PM BST

Interesting point. Does Fry have any aristocracy in his family line though?

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I don't know. I know his grandparents were Hungarian Jews who fled the country to avoid the Holocaust, but some mebers of his family didn't make it and were killed by the Nazis.

Quote: Ian Wolf @ September 13 2009, 3:47 PM BST

I don't know. I know his grandparents were Hungarian Jews who fled the country to avoid the Holocaust, but some mebers of his family didn't make it and were killed by the Nazis.

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Was this through meticulous research or did you just watch 'Who Do You Think You Are?' starring Stephen Fry?

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ September 13 2009, 3:55 PM BST

Was this through meticulous research or did you just watch 'Who Do You Think You Are?' starring Stephen Fry?

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Admittedly, the later of the two options.

Quote: Godot Taxis @ September 13 2009, 2:36 PM BST

None of the things you list are indicators of above-average wit or talent. Some of them are quite laughable as badges of intelligence: a columnist? Like Richard Littlejohn and Melanie Phillips? Written four novels? Danielle Steele has written 81. Been on University Challenge? You obviously never watch it. Cleverness isn't the same as intelligence is it? In fact clever is exactly what Fry is - with everything that implies - a savant's urge to bottle arcane trivia, like the waistband size of the fattest man in the world or the fact that the Koala bear isn't actually a bear.

As for graduating from Cambridge... That isn't a sign of being more intelligent and talented than 'the majority of the people on Earth', unless you consider Vanessa Feltz, Lloyd Grossman, Konnie Huq, Mel & Sue, Rachel Weisz, Tony Slattery, Terry Waite, Claire Balding, Richard Stilgoe, Carol Vorderman, Princes Charles and numerous other utterly average celebrity performers and public figures to meet the criteria as well.

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Okay. So what would he have to do to prove his intelligence to you? An IQ test maybe? Or is scoring highly on the Intelligence Quotient test not proof of intelligence either? He's already said his score was "approaching genius". Genii make up approx .25% of the population, or 1 in 400. Which kind of bears out my assertion that he is indeed cleverer than most people.

Oh and that list of Cambridge graduates - yes, I would definitely count all those people as being more intelligent than most. Especially Vordermann, who has an IQ of 154 and so is officially a genius.

There is a difference between having a brilliant brain and a brilliant mind. (In my view, Stephen has a brilliant brain and a very good mind.) IQ tests just basically quantify a person's ability to process, store and retrieve information. It's equivalent to a test of your computer's processing ability, storage capacity and RAM performance. The higher the score the more brilliant the brain. A exceptionally high IQ does not by definition make you a genius, but it does make your brain a very efficient computer.

A brilliant mind, however, I would suggest is more about the ability to deal with more abstract concepts and deeper philisophical and emotional information. A lot of scientists and mathematicians have brilliant brains but poor minds (they often lack basic common sense or good social comprehension, for example). Whereas great writers, artists, songwriters etc tend to have good (or merely adequate) brains, but brilliant minds. Hope this makes some sort of sense. (In fact, Mr Fry makes the distinction himself between a brilliant brain and a brilliant mind somewhere in his novel The Liar, IIRC.)

Quote: Lee Henman @ September 13 2009, 5:52 PM BST

Which kind of bears out my assertion that he is indeed cleverer than most people.

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He can't be that smart, he puts his willy in men's bum-bums. You won't get any babies that way. You'd have to be pretty thick to mistake a man for a lady.*

*My list trip to Bangkok notwithstanding.

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ September 13 2009, 6:30 PM BST

He can't be that smart, he puts his willy in men's bum-bums. You won't get any babies that way. You'd have to be pretty thick to mistake a man for a lady.*

*My list trip to Bangkok notwithstanding.

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Reminds me of the joke

Q) What's the smartest thing to ever come out of a woman's mouth?

A) Einstein's cock.

Quote: Lee Henman @ September 13 2009, 6:35 PM BST

Reminds me of the joke

Q) What's the smartest thing to ever come out of a woman's mouth?

A) Einstein's cock.

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zooo will get you for that Lee.