Quote: Nick Nockerty @ 21st June 2015, 4:32 PM BST

Just checked and the gun death rate in America is currently 223 times higher than in England.

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No it's not. According to Wikipedia, it's 42x. Perhaps you're looking at overall numbers and not taking into account that our population is 5x yours? And speaking of overall numbers, 2 out of 3 gun deaths are suicides.

Let us send a million gang members and their guns to the UK and we'll see how fast your murder rate climbs when they are unleashed in an unarmed populace and a mostly unarmed police force.

I've yet to hear a workable plan for removing firearms from the hands of our criminals. Until that happens, expect Americans to continue to push backs against worthless gun control legislation.

Quote: DaButt @ 21st June 2015, 5:25 PM BST

....According to Wikipedia, it's 42x. Perhaps you're looking at overall numbers and not taking into account that our population is 5x yours?....

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Good point, well made. It is only 42 X HIGHER which is only 4200% more than in the UK. I realy don't see what all the fuss is about.

It's like preaching to a baked bean. I've had this discussion with many Americans. It's indoctrinated.
'They got guns, I gotta have a gun.'
I've never seen a gun and I don't know anyone who has.

Quote: Hercules Grytpype Thynne @ 20th June 2015, 11:19 AM BST

So a Somali refugee with terrorist tendencies has had his ankle monitor removed because a judge said it breached his human rights because he thought it was an MI5 monitor/camera and/or a bomb attached to him and was giving him mental issues................the mind boggles, or am I missing summat?

Why don't they just deport him to Somalia and resolve a lot of issues.

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Or before he goes home put a real bomb on his ankle!

Someone was saying that of course the Right of everyone to bear arms was more of a defensive thing before they had peace and became civilised.

Or are they still waiting?

Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 21st June 2015, 6:42 PM BST

It's like preaching to a baked bean. I've had this discussion with many Americans. It's indoctrinated.
'They got guns, I gotta have a gun.'
I've never seen a gun and I don't know anyone who has.

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Nail on head

The United States of America was built with the bullet

It was taken from its indigenous people with bullets

And it's been bullets flying ever since

Sadly that's history now and it'll never change

But yeah me too,never seen a gun in my life, don't know a single person who has

Wouldn't be able to get my hand on one if my life depended on it

Telling a yank to give up his gun is kinda like asking a junkie to give up smack - pointless cos they're blind to the stupidity of it all

Da Butt, it's obvious you're a really nice person, but we here just don' t understand the gun culture. Try to imagine ... What do you think would happen if, overnight, all your guns were taken away. What would happen?

Quote: DaButt @ 21st June 2015, 5:25 PM BST

And speaking of overall numbers, 2 out of 3 gun deaths are suicides.

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That's still a tragic homicide.

Quote: DaButt @ 21st June 2015, 3:41 PM BST

Our country has a gun crime problem. But the heart of that problem is drugs, gangs and inner city street violence; the average American is untouched by gun violence.

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An average has to take into account the qualities of all Americans...including the gangs.

Quote: DaButt @ 21st June 2015, 5:25 PM BST

And speaking of overall numbers, 2 out of 3 gun deaths are suicides.

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That makes it OK then.

Have you read this, the Queen is still alive ! OK I just said that because there's a gun against my head. But she is actually still alive.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3133478/Making-eighth-appearance-SEVEN-days-s-Queen-aged-89-Majesty-joins-Prince-Philip-day-polo-present-prizes.html

Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 21st June 2015, 6:42 PM BST

I've never seen a gun and I don't know anyone who has.

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Quote: lofthouse @ 21st June 2015, 7:28 PM BST

But yeah me too,never seen a gun in my life, don't know a single person who has

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Neither of you has ever met a military veteran? That boggles my mind; 25% of American men are veterans and have received lots of training in the safe handling and operation of firearms.

Every time I've been to the UK I've seen guns outside of various sensitive locations.

Quote: lofthouse @ 21st June 2015, 7:28 PM BST

Telling a yank to give up his gun is kinda like asking a junkie to give up smack - pointless cos they're blind to the stupidity of it all

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What's stupid is the fear of an inanimate object. I don't worry any more about guns than I do automobiles or baseball bats. Americans are well within their rights to choose to not own a firearm. They're also well within their constitutionally guaranteed rights to own firearms if they choose. What's the big deal?

Quote: keewik @ 21st June 2015, 8:37 PM BST

Da Butt, it's obvious you're a really nice person, but we here just don' t understand the gun culture. Try to imagine ... What do you think would happen if, overnight, all your guns were taken away. What would happen?

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Well, I guess I'd have to get really good with a bow and arrow when deer hunting season rolls around. I'd also start carrying some sort of long spear in case I encountered any coyotes or mountain lions while walking through the woods behind my neighborhood.

"Gun culture" is a term used by people who don't like guns; it doesn't really mean anything. Literally every one of my neighbors owns one or more firearms, but it's not like it's a "culture." They're just things that we keep locked up in safes that we don't even think about unless it's hunting season or time for a visit to the range.

I wasn't raised in a home with guns, although my parents now own one or two. I choose to avoid having firearms in my house until my children were adults. Now I own several and each has a different purpose. I don't lie awake worrying about becoming a crime victim, but it's reassuring to know that if someone kicks down my door I'll have a 12-gauge shotgun ready to protect myself until the cops arrive 15 minutes later. I was a Boy Scout, so "Be Prepared" and all that...

Your scenario for magically disappearing guns isn't all that far from the mark, because that's the only way that I could see the government removing constitutionally authorized firearms from every American. It would be political suicide for any candidate or party (Democrats own their fair share of guns) so the idea of cops ransacking homes in search of guns is pretty much unthinkable.

A ban on guns is not a cure-all for suicides, murders or crime. Our neighbors to the north in Canada have stricter gun laws and their murder rate is 1/3 of ours, but our southern neighbors in Mexico have extremely strict gun laws, yet their murder rate is 5x ours. Japan has very strict gun laws, yet their murder rate is 1/3 of the UK's.

Here's something to chew on: the murder rate for the UK as a whole is 3x the murder rate for Texans like myself who hold a concealed handgun license.

Possession of a firearm doesn't turn a law-abiding citizen into a raging murderer. It's really that simple.

Veterans aren't allowed to keep their guns though.

Obviously I've seen soldiers on parade, police at airports and farmers.

So, if it's not the guns, what is it?
Somethings going on to produce these kind of figures.
Perhaps Dabutt is right.
Is it easier to blame guns than a society that appears to be messed up?

I genuinely don't know.

I live in the country and I reckon on our lane alone there are at least half-a-dozen guys with shotguns.
60% of the blokes in the pub go hunting.
Yet church massacres are relatively rare.

Quote: Lazzard @ 22nd June 2015, 5:50 PM BST

So, if it's not the guns, what is it?
Somethings going on to produce these kind of figures.

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Our murder rate is at a 50-year low, while the numbers of guns are at an all-time high, so it's clear that guns are not the culprits.

What makes a person want to shoot someone? Most people would only consider doing so in self defence, but in the inner cities there are gang members, drug dealers and street criminals who will murder someone for lesser reasons. It didn't get anywhere near as much press as the church shooting, but a few days ago one or more shooters shot a dozen people at a child's birthday party in Detroit; luckily only one person died. Cops are having a difficult time investigating the incident because nobody will speak to them. It's street violence at its worst.

Spree killings are rare and make up a small percentage of gun crimes, but they get most of the press coverage because they're sensational. The nation doesn't blink an eye when gang members kill other gang members.

Quote: Lazzard @ 22nd June 2015, 5:50 PM BST

So, I live in the country and I reckon on our lane alone there are at least half-a-dozen guys with shotguns.
60% of the blokes in the pub go hunting.
Yet church massacres are relatively rare.

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They're rare here, too, but politicians are always keen to look like they're doing something, so the gun haters always try to rush anti-gun legislation through while the pain of a tragedy is still fresh. In reality, they only impact legal gun owners and the bad guys on the streets are unaffected. A case in point is the eagerness to ban so-called "assault rifles" and "high-capacity" magazines. Rifles of all kinds are rarely used to commit crimes and the church shooter reloaded 5 times, proving that limiting magazine capacity doesn't reduce the number of shooting victims.

Quote: Lazzard @ 22nd June 2015, 5:50 PM BST

So, if it's not the guns, what is it?

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Speaking as someone married to a criminologist, most mass murders or serial killers tend to lack empathy. We're not talking about one off mistakes or crimes of passion. Were talking about premedative murder. Stephen Hawking recently made the point that lack of empathy is the biggest risk to mankind. So we're talking Psychopath/Sociopath, Narcissist, Borderline or Schizophrenic. This type of person also considers themselves superior, and hence justified in killing.

They tend to aspire to being seen as legends and hence the ISIS's rhetoric of martyrdom appeals. Most of ISIS's foreign recruits are believed to fall into this category (mostly psychopaths). Others believed to have a Personality Disorder were, Churchill, Hitler and General Pattern. Psychopaths are the ultimate fighting being (they have no fear and quick reactions) there are African tribes that have learnt how to cultivate psychopaths. Here in the UK however, we let them loose on reality TV, that seems to make them feel important enough. Just don't let Katie Hopkins near a gun. Do you remember Josie Cunningham offering to abort her kid just so Big Brother would let her in - no empathy. Imagine if she had a gun !