Scriptwriting? Why bother. Page 3

I think some people are confusing "closed shop", implying the importance of personal connections, old school tie, special handshakes, or whatever, and "tough industry", implying that people need a lot of luck and/or grafting energy to succeed.

It's incredibly difficult to make a living as musician - arguably harder than making money as a professional writer - but nobody claims there's an old boys' network in the back of the Cavern Club or Royal Albert Hall, do they? It's a just a difficult career choice, and so is comedy/drama/fiction writing. And, no, sense of humour is not sufficient justification for a creer, I'm afraid, any more than musical ability is.

Now, we can argue that the money people, and society in general, don't value creative endeavours enough, and that is probably true; it's a pity maybe that an advertising "creative" gets tens of thousands to essentially nick a concept from an artwork, and plenty of visionary artists earn very little, just as it's a pity that in terms of remuneration it looks as though a banker is considered to be 10 times more valuable than a nurse, but that's a much bigger topic.

As an aside, I am proof that just going to Oxford University doesn't allow you to walk into any old job you fancy (and, yep, I got a good degree, I didn't fail or owt), and certainly doesn't let you wander into the BBC and say "Who wants a script, then lads?". It's a misconception. Now, of course, had I gone to university and spent hundreds of hours working to be a comedy writer from day one, making contacts and whatever, then, yep, my university have been a bit of a help...but that's really no different from putting in hundreds of hours working the stand-up circuit or staging plays or whatever.

As it happens I never joined the Oxford Revue because when I checked them out, they didn't seem very funny to me*. Didn't last time I looked either, and neither did the Oxford Imps improv troupe (although that was a few years ago, which is of course generations in students terms, so it could be brilliant now). Had I had a burning desire to be a professional comedy writer/performer/exec (or, a burning desire for any career whatsoever) I guess I'd have put in the man hours, and might have got a small leg up, but as I didn't...

It's easy to assume that somebody else has had better breaks than you; we all do it, it's natural. But it won't help you achieve anything, and probably isn't very true. If you want to be concerned at inequality, you should worry that a vast number of employers nowadays, especially in the arts, expect people (yep, even Oxbridge grads) to work as interns for a long period without pay to get a forthold in the profession: I see this as a far greater injustice, barring people from jobs due to financial background, rather than whatever ostensibly meritocratic selection process they went through to go to university (or not).

*Pedantic aside: the Oxford Union is nothing to do with writing comedy, or writing anything else. It's a kind of society where people could pay a lot of money to go to a building and...do you, I have no clue what the point of it is, which is why I never joined. There are lectures and stuff. And like, wine tasting. No idea, to be honest.

PS This should be in Writers' Discussion, shouldn't it?
PPS Oh, it's been moved in the time it took me to reply - ninja mods!

Yup Gappy and para four absolutely yup. And as you say these are the things you can and should do out of uni... Especially nowadays

It's a bit of yes and no to the Oxbridge thing from me. It's never been a hindrance has it, in truth, and these favours from old members in broadcasting still go on, daft to close your mind to it - Sue Perkins getting a commission straight to BBC2 for a sitcom that was dead on delivery has to have elements of bias about it. No form as a sitcom writer but straight onto BBC2 without a pilot.

Many of the non Ox sitcom writers of recent years have had to pilot, spend weeks in Salford, go through schemes, some as part of a reality show, and when finally commissioned usually start on BBC3 or 4 or E4 or SkyDie or whatever, minor channels.

I think there'd be more of them if it weren't for the new trend of handing standups their own sitcoms. This bothers me more, because they've been formally weak so far, little more than blatant vehicles for stars' own egos and often similar to their own standup acts, even using the same material. Whether it's Ox or standup who get the most sitcom deals now, the commissioners don't seem to want (m)any others in the club.

The commissioners couldn't give a toss. They would rip your arm off for another Fools and Horses show from Oxbridge educated stand up comedian John Sullivan alikes.

Perkins wrote for French and Saunders and on Ab Fab apparently and had a long career in TV before said sitcom. Maybe she met some people to chat with about he r idea when in there.

When ever I get asked about my modest success in the lower ends of comedy writing, my answer is always persistence beats talent.

The various channels have only got a limited number of slots for comedy each year. Perhaps a couple of thousand hours reflecting work for a couple of hundred writers. Each show reflecting an investment of thousands of pounds and yup that includes radio.

So of course that's going to go to known, reliable predictable writers who've learned their skills.

There are going to be many writers who've mastered the necessary skills, the required funniness. But there's just no slots, like a queue of unemployed clowns in the 30s standing in line for the one job at the circus.

It doesn't mean it's hopeless, just that it's terribly, terribly hard and you need to hang on in there.

Sometimes the only difference is that the clowns are in the building. Which is also true but is and always has been part of the challenge.

Quote: sootyj @ 23rd August 2014, 4:32 PM BST

When ever I get asked about my modest success in the lower ends of comedy writing, my answer is always persistence beats talent.

The various channels have only got a limited number of slots for comedy each year. Perhaps a couple of thousand hours reflecting work for a couple of hundred writers. Each show reflecting an investment of thousands of pounds and yup that includes radio.

So of course that's going to go to known, reliable predictable writers who've learned their skills.

There are going to be many writers who've mastered the necessary skills, the required funniness. But there's just no slots, like a queue of unemployed clowns in the 30s standing in line for the one job at the circus.

It doesn't mean it's hopeless, just that it's terribly, terribly hard and you need to hang on in there.

Without the bit about 'modest success' and I was just about to post very similar.

I certainly hope it's persistence as I'm a stubborn bugger :)

I'd also say my firm belief is similar to that stated earlier in the thread: it probably does you the world of good to work your backside off at it and get something written and produced yourself by yourself if necessary.

- It might just get somewhere by itself...
- It shows the dedication/effort you'll put in - which may be enough to help mark you out as serious about comedy.
- Whether it succeeds or fails, you'll probably learn a lot about your comedy, the audience etc
- It's infinitely better than sending off scripts and then sitting around waiting for someone else to take all the risk and produce your script...
- Lots of other 'stuff wot I probably do forget rite now' :)

BTW I always try to keep in mind the greatly mentioned number of 10,000 hrs (I think it's 10k) for someone to become excellent/world-class at something. Writing for few hundred hours and sending off a few scripts is probably only part of the start to get there...

BTW2 - Having said that, it infuriates me that a poor window cleaner can probably still make enough money to live by cleaning windows. But to make more than what mounts to occasional expenses in comedy (performance and/or writing) you need to be damn good. Mention that as maybe that makes it look more like a closed shop, the fact that, Oxbridge or not, only a very small percentage of comedy writers/performers make money from it.

Quote: Marc P @ 23rd August 2014, 3:08 PM BST

Oh dear indeed . I did not think Bill was taking the piss at all and was just being jokey. We were playing the game of as If I was interviewing you as you knew. No trolling at all as you suggest. Sorry if I misled you in someway the point I am trying to make is that it is not a closed shop which seems to me to be the negative stance. Most sitcom writers are not from Oxbridge that is just a simple fact. As to modern TV sitcom Galton and Simpson are seen by some as the forefathers if you like of it. And no it was a genuine question as to who S and G are/were. Sun is shining in this part of EA I hope it is in yours too and good luck with your projects... Just please don't let Oxbridge conspirators closed ranks notions put you off. I am a failed sitcom writer but I honestly don't put that down to not going to Oxbridge. :)

"Oh dear indeed . I did not think Bill was taking the piss at all and was just being jokey. "
Well, I can only go by what you previously said, so I am a tad confused there:-
"So Bill has to take the piss for you to get the point I am making lol :D"

" As to modern TV sitcom Galton and Simpson are seen by some as the forefathers if you like of it. And no it was a genuine question as to who S and G are/were."
Then I apologise.

"Sun is shining in this part of EA I hope it is in yours too"
Thank you. It is showery with some sun, BUT Norwich has just beaten Ipswich at Portman Road, so a bit overcast!

"Just please don't let Oxbridge conspirators closed ranks notions put you off. I am a failed sitcom writer but I honestly don't put that down to not going to Oxbridge. :)"
".....and good luck with your projects."
Thank you and maybe I will try again one day - although with the plagiarism and the double standards I experienced that it is unlikely. You clearly need grit and determination but am now too old and the brain doesn't function like it used to.

Sootyj I think has nailed it - "just that it's terribly, terribly hard and you need to hang on in there."

Hope to cross swords with you again one day - providing it doesn't get too serious.

Wave

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 23rd August 2014, 4:19 PM BST

It's a bit of yes and no to the Oxbridge thing from me. It's never been a hindrance has it, in truth, and these favours from old members in broadcasting still go on, daft to close your mind to it - Sue Perkins getting a commission straight to BBC2 for a sitcom that was dead on delivery has to have elements of bias about it. No form as a sitcom writer but straight onto BBC2 without a pilot.

I suspect she got a sit com easily because she is a celebrity with a long career in TV, rather than the university she attended 20 years ago. Celebrity and industry experience count for a lot - we can argue about whether that's valid, but it's a big leap to claim that going to Cambridge got Sue Perkins a sit com in a different milennium. Lauren Laverne, perhaps an equivalent sort of light-entertainment broadcaster type, gets lots of work in journalism and radio and stuff, because she's got presenting experience, and if she pitched a sit com it would probably get a good hearing, but she didn't go to Cambridge, or university at all, she went to Sunderland College**

Maybe she got her first TV break, writing for French & Saunders* through university contacts, I have no idea. It would be idiotic to claim that you can't make good contacts to further a career in any profession from Oxbridge, because the theory is that the most able people attend (we can argue about the veractiy of that another time), and therefore peers will end up near the top of their chosen industry...but

1) You have to actively choose that industry, and then put in lots of work to make the contacts.
2) There are lots of ways to make the same contacts without going to a particular university.
3) There really are plenty of people who went to Oxbridge and worked hard to start a career in the arts, and were completely unsuccessful.

It's probably true that, 4 or 5 decades ago, you could walk into The Times' office and say "I just graduated with an Oxbridge 2:1, can I have a job?", and they'd say "Yes, we'll find you something...fancy a crack at the crosswords?", but I really think these days are behind us.

To be honest, I suspect that connections made before university, at public school, still have far more sway over our society (although perhaps less so in the arts). Put it like this, I was at Oxford for 3 years and I never even heard of the Bullingdon Club, let alone got the chance to not be allowed in Laughing out loud It's these sort of contacts that ultimately have more effect on people's future success, I think - and, again, the current administration aside, I do think that we are moving away from that as a society, slowly but surely.

*I looked this up, by the way, I'm not a Mel Perkins obsessive. Never really been interested in her to be frank, though she seems perfectly talented to do the sort of harmless thing she does.
**See above.

It's an Internet forum never let anything get too serious :) I shall keep my weapon unsheathed!

Quote: Judgement Dave @ 23rd August 2014, 4:46 PM BST

BTW2 - Having said that, it infuriates me that a poor window cleaner can probably still make enough money to live by cleaning windows. But to make more than what mounts to occasional expenses in comedy (performance and/or writing) you need to be damn good.

There are far more windows than there are TV channels.

Are you honestly telling us it has nothing to do with her being a lesbian gappy. A cabal with more sway than Opus Dei!

Quote: gappy @ 23rd August 2014, 5:07 PM BST

There are far more windows than there are TV channels.

But are they windows of opportunity or double glazed over.

Quote: Marc P @ 23rd August 2014, 5:08 PM BST

But are they windows of opportunity or double glazed over.

They're the whole damned ceiling, man.

Speaking as a failed window cleaner who spent a lot of time at the OUWCS in the 90s I find this whole thread very upsetting.

Funnily enough this conversation I think has inspired me to pull my finger out and get back on with Newsjack.

And my latest shitty sitcom project.

Quote: gappy @ 23rd August 2014, 5:12 PM BST

They're the whole damned ceiling, man.

Speaking as a failed window cleaner who spent a lot of time at the OUWCS in the 90s I find this whole thread very upsetting.

Alright don't lose your rag! Oh you probably did sorry.