Quote: youngian @ December 21 2011, 11:39 AM GMT

As someone who has always been a union member I think a lot of what you say is correct. I recently read an argument that Britian unionised much earlier and there was a culture of craft and guild associations that protected their skills and trade with great verve. Admirable the skills of the typewriter making guild might be they weren't much good to the late 20th century.

But that was then, unions at car factories in the UK are in some of the most succesful plants in Europe. Pity it took the Japanese and Germans to remind us how to do it.

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Absolutely. And though protectionism always leads to disaster, British governments should definitely always be looking to invest in training and development in skilled/competitive industries.

Quote: Timbo @ December 21 2011, 11:42 AM GMT

Closing down mines does mean that remaining coal essentially becomes irretreviable; from the point of view of energy security it was always unwise, and may appear more so in the looming energy crises. Much of the coal that flooded into Britain in the 80s was polluting poor quality lignite from Eastern Europe, and under procurement rules public sector clients were obliged to buy it.

The victory over the miners was always more about ideology than economics, though in fairness Scargill was the living embodiement of all that was wrong with trade unionism (as is Bob Crow now).

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Well it's not going anywhere.

And if you bear in mind in the future we'll be turning it into petrol substitute I'm glad it's there. I'm a proud union member. But I dislike being expected to strike on behalf of people who get close to double my wage for the same job. Or how when asked to manage a unionised placement, it was made clear that I shouldn't expect to achieve much with regards to poor performance and excessive sickness.

Quote: Timbo @ December 21 2011, 11:42 AM GMT

The victory over the miners was always more about ideology than economics, though in fairness Scargill was the living embodiement of all that was wrong with trade unionism (as is Bob Crow now).

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Hear hear. Why would anyone would wish to be led by people who, effectively, still believe that the Soviet model of communism was basically a good and sound idea?

The worst union bosses are always dreaming of the day that Britain suddenly becomes a truly socialist/communist society. It's only their own egos which prevent them from seeing that Britain is (and since the monarchy was put in its place, always has been) a free-market, capitalist economy. And the instincts of the British people have consistently shown that it always will be.

Whilst meanwhile hoovering up generous salaries and what ever goodies are out there.

Bob Crowe has created the ridiculous situation where the mayor in the next few years will probably put most of his members out of work. When he uses the same technology most other countries use for driverless trains.

Quote: Tim Walker @ December 21 2011, 11:42 AM GMT

Absolutely. And though protectionism always leads to disaster, British governments should definitely always be looking to invest in training and development in skilled/competitive industries.

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Part of the problem is that DTI or whatever it is called this week is staffed by gimlet-eyed economic graduates who swallowed their university textbooks hook, line and sinker. Other countries pay lip service to free trade whilst seeking to protect their national interest; in Britain from a misplaced sense of ideological purity we actively encourage foreign manufacturers to come and outcompete our industries. Does anyone honestly believe that in France or Germany the sums are not cooked to ensure that local companies are awarded contracts?

That#s certainly true but it's a disease that afflicts all parties.

Except UKIP and the BNP

uhm I'm backing Britain!
"Drops trousers stands in Union Jack Yfronts farting God Save the Queen"

Trades unions, principly, are wonderful things...like the NHS and the welfare system. Their purpose is to protect and defend the rights and conditions of the majority of people. The problems occur when certain members/reps/officials forget that.
The NUM being the strongest and most powerful union at the time and the one that would back other unions too. That's the reason and not the price of production of coal.
How much have things improved for the 'ordinary' working person since that time since most unions became largely toothless?

Quote: sootyj @ December 21 2011, 11:51 AM GMT

Bob Crowe has created the ridiculous situation where the mayor in the next few years will probably put most of his members out of work. When he uses the same technology most other countries use for driverless trains.

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RMT are an example of the worse kind of trade unionism - where an effective closed shop and a key role in the economy is used to demand and obtain rewards out of all proportion to the skills required and dedication asked. Unfortunately they are in a much stronger position than the print unions were to block new technology, as the whole of the tube system cannot be moved overnight to Wapping.

Now there's a complex question.

How does one measure quality of living?

And the utter disinterest in the quality of employment of the millions of agency workers has been the union's undoing. Idiots. Employers simply swallow the admin costs and have workers with precious few rights.

Quote: rwayne @ December 21 2011, 11:55 AM GMT

How much have things improved for the 'ordinary' working person since that time since most unions became largely toothless?

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More than if the trade unions still had the same powers & practices that they had in the 1960s & 1970s. The average standard-of-living in this country is influenced by [i]many more[i/] factors than simply take-home pay and pensions.

Quote: rwayne @ December 21 2011, 11:55 AM GMT

How much have things improved for the 'ordinary' working person since that time since most unions became largely toothless?

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Bread and circuses, or in a contemporary spin, cheap consumer goods and multi-media entertainment.

Quote: Timbo @ December 21 2011, 11:59 AM GMT

RMT are an example of the worse kind of trade unionism - where an effective closed shop and a key role in the economy is used to demand and obtain rewards out of all proportion to the skills required and dedication asked. Unfortunately they are in a much stronger position than the print unions were to block new technology, as the whole of the tube system cannot be moved overnight to Wapping.

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I'm not sure. Once the Olympics are over, it would mean a few months of disruption.

Perhaps if he brought in a few hundred buses and slashed transport costs in the short term?

Quote: Timbo @ December 21 2011, 11:59 AM GMT

Unfortunately they are in a much stronger position than the print unions were to block new technology, as the whole of the tube system cannot be moved overnight to Wapping.

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But, as sootyj alludes to, the trains can (and should) be made driverless. The logistics of this are, naturally, a nightmare. But that should be the ultimate goal/threat. Bob Crowe perhaps underestimates exactly how little sympathy the general public have for Tube workers.

Quote: Tim Walker @ December 21 2011, 12:00 PM GMT

More than if the trade unions still had the same powers & practices that they had in the 1960s & 1970s. The average standard-of-living in this country is influenced by [i]many more[i/] factors than simply take-home pay and pensions.

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Of course...but not a consolation when working for £6 an hour will not pay your bills.

At least there's a minimun wage.....

tax credits help...