Quote: Kenneth @ 13th June 2016, 3:24 AM BST

Guns are bad.
No, guns are good! Only criminals are bad!
Guns make people die!
No, guns protect us. If the fellows in that gay bar had been carrying guns, the shooter would have been shot dead earlier and many lives would have been saved.
Yes, guns in the hands of civilians makes the world safer.
No, cos the more guns = the more gun deaths. No guns = no gun deaths.
Then he would have killed them with a plastic spoon or a Little League baseball bat.
Etc.
Repeat ad nauseum.

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Very thorough!

Thank you for doing it so we don't have to.

Oh what a surprise! Another mass-shooting in the good od US of A. But it's OK really because you can have guns there. So you can't differentiate for terrorists. He's just a gool old gun-toting Yank!

If the fellows in that gay bar had been carrying guns, the shooter would have been shot dead earlier and many lives would have been saved.

So why didn't this happen?

Quote: billwill @ 14th June 2016, 12:45 AM BST

So why didn't this happen?

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Florida's concealed carry law states:

A license issued under this section does not authorize any person to openly carry a handgun or carry a concealed weapon or firearm into:

Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose;

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.06.html

Here in Texas, establishments that derive more than half of their income from sales of alcohol are required to clearly post a 51% sign that informs license holders that they are not allowed to bring a firearm into the establishment.

For what it's worth, an armed police officer confronted the shooter as he attempted to enter the building. There was a shootout, but obviously the shooter was not stopped until later.

As you've said before DaButt in a pistol vs rifle fight, rifle wins most times especially if the rifle wielder is wearing a bullet proof vest?

Lets assume the shooter had say only a pistol, or a pistol or carbine that held maybe less than 10 bullets?

Or if he owned a carbine he had to keep it securely locked up at a gun range, or maybe just didn't get a license because or a license for such a "potent" weapon. Because he needed a more advanced license for it and maybe had to show he had just cause for such a thing?

Would more people be alive in Orlando today then yesterday?

But wait the NRA released a statement this morning. He was actually armed with Islamic beliefs, political correctness and mental illness.

That gun was just an innocent bystander, my mistake.

Quote: sootyj @ 14th June 2016, 8:16 AM BST

... or maybe just didn't get a license because or a license for such a "potent" weapon. Because he needed a more advanced license for it and maybe had to show he had just cause for such a thing?

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Exactly.
Is it really beyond the wit of [american] man to create a better system?
Every time there's even a whiff of reform the gun lobby give us the old "from my cold dead hand" speech.
We don't want to take your gun away.
Just make you wait a fortnight for it, or, if you're a c**t, say you probably can't have one the grounds that you're, well... a c**t.

And I love the idea of the people in the club being armed.
They're gay FFS they just want to party, listen to Judy Garland records and live in peace.
They're not exactly 'good old boys'.

And on a separate point, I note that no-one's asking the Baptist church to distance themselves from that hate-mongering baptist preacher from the boondocks who openly celebrated the death of 5o 'sodomites' - the way they scream for the Muslim church to distance itself from the nut-jobs who hi-jack their peace-loving religion to fulfil their squalid fantasies.

Also time and again the fear of "he had a gun" or even "he might have had an anti tank gun." Has empowered police departments to arm themselves to a point most armies would be envious. Then go in mob handed and when they kill innocent people get off scott free.

In countries like Holland or Japan where the police are armed but citizens aren't. The police don't merrily gun people down, because the justification would be almost none existent.

It seems weird that so many smart people don't get that civil rights and the rule of law protect you far more than a shooter from the forces of government.

Quote: sootyj @ 14th June 2016, 8:16 AM BST

Lets assume the shooter had say only a pistol, or a pistol or carbine that held maybe less than 10 bullets?

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As I've said before, it takes about one second to drop an empty mag and insert a new one and continue firing, and in that one second it's highly unlikely that anyone is going to try to attack the shooter. They're going to be running for the exits or cowering on the floor.

Magazine capacity limits are useless in preventing deaths. The majority of today's pistols come with magazines which hold more than 10 rounds (mine holds 17) and there's no way to get the genie back into the bottle when there are hundreds of of millions of pistols and magazines already on the street.

Quote: sootyj @ 14th June 2016, 8:16 AM BST

Or if he owned a carbine he had to keep it securely locked up at a gun range, or maybe just didn't get a license because or a license for such a "potent" weapon. Because he needed a more advanced license for it and maybe had to show he had just cause for such a thing?

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I use my AR-15 for hunting. Why should I have to keep it locked away at a gun range?

One constant in America's ever-growing gun laws is that cops, retired cops and politicians are exempt from the rules. The reason is clear: politicians don't want to be constrained by the same rules as their constituents, and they need cops and their powerful unions (NRA, anyone?) to support the new laws. Here's a newsflash: cops, off-duty cops and retired cops commit gun crimes and murders just like the unwashed masses. Why should they be exempt from legislation?

It should be noted that the Orlando shooter had a degree in criminal justice and attended a police academy. He was highly trained and passed multiple background tests and psychological evaluations. He possessed a valid license to carry and was licensed in Florida to serve as an armed security guard. Stricter licensing would have done nothing to stop him from going on his rampage.

Quote: sootyj @ 14th June 2016, 8:16 AM BST

That gun was just an innocent bystander, my mistake.

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That's absolutely correct. Guns don't shoot people any more than forks make people fat. They're just inanimate hunks of plastic and metal that are completely harmless on their own.

Quote: Lazzard @ 14th June 2016, 10:04 AM BST

We don't want to take your gun away.

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Maybe you don't, but many politicians do. They insist they don't, but when they're on the record as wanting to ban handguns and semi-automatic rifles (as is our current president) and continuously point to Australia (mandatory confiscation with threats of jail for noncompliance) as a reasonable solution, then it's clear that they actually do want to take our guns away.

Quote: Lazzard @ 14th June 2016, 10:04 AM BST

Just make you wait a fortnight for it

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Explain to a woman who is being stalked by a violent ex why she has to wait 2 weeks to exercise her constitutional right to self-protection. Perhaps in the meantime the government could provide her with armed bodyguards 24/7 like the politicians who enact such useless and ridiculous laws.

Waiting periods would only work in the rare cases where someone wants to commit suicide spontaneously and without much thought. What are the chances that such a person would hop in the car and drive down to a gun dealer and spend $600+ for a handgun when they could just jump off a bridge or swallow a handful of pills?

Quote: Lazzard @ 14th June 2016, 10:04 AM BST

And I love the idea of the people in the club being armed.
They're gay FFS they just want to party, listen to Judy Garland records and live in peace.
They're not exactly 'good old boys'.

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I have gay friends and family members and many of them own guns. They're just regular people with regular interests in hunting, target shooting and self-protection.

There's actually a nationwide LGBT organization called The Pink Pistols which promotes gun rights and carrying for self-defence. Here's their statement about Orlando:

Gwendolyn Patton, First Speaker of the Pink Pistols, an international GLBT self-defence organization, warns people not to jump immediately to the assailant's guns as the object of blame, but to concentrate instead on Mateen's violent acts. "The Pink Pistols gives condolences to all family and friends of those killed and injured at Pulse," began Patton. "This is exactly the kind of heinous act that justifies our existence. At such a time of tragedy, let us not reach for the low-hanging fruit of blaming the killer's guns. Let us stay focused on the fact that someone hated gay people so much they were ready to kill or injure so many. A human being did this. The human being's tools are unimportant when compared to the bleakness of that person's soul. I say again, GUNS did not do this. A human being did this, a dead human being. Our job now is not to demonize the man's tools, but to condemn his acts and work to prevent such acts in the future."

Patton's concerns are that knee-jerk gun-control efforts may make preventing future events harder rather than easier, as only the law-abiding potential victims will be affected by such laws. "It is difficult, if not impossible, to foresee such an event," continues Patton, "But if they cannot be prevented, then they must be stopped as fast as someone tries to start them."

Quote: Lazzard @ 14th June 2016, 10:04 AM BST

the way they scream for the Muslim church to distance itself from the nut-jobs who hi-jack their peace-loving religion to fulfil their squalid fantasies.

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Let's not pretend that anti-gay feelings don't run strongly through Islam, the Koran says that gays should be put to death. That's Shariah law for ya.

Here's a map of entire countries where homosexuality is punishable by death:

Quote: sootyj @ 14th June 2016, 10:55 AM BST

In countries like Holland or Japan where the police are armed but citizens aren't. The police don't merrily gun people down, because the justification would be almost none existent.

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I don't think you'll find that American cops "merrily" gun people down, they shoot when their lives, or the lives of others, are in danger. And I don't think you'd find any armed cop in Holland, Japan, the UK or anywhere else who wouldn't do the same.

Quote: DaButt @ 14th June 2016, 2:01 PM BST

Let's not pretend that anti-gay feelings don't run strongly through Islam, the Koran says that gays should be put to death. That's Shariah law for ya.

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And lets not pretend that all manner of bigotry isn't pandemic in the Evangelical Christian Church.

Leviticus 20:13
'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

That's God's Law for ya.

My point was that you have Southern Baptist preaching hate against the gay community, but the religion as a whole is not asked to distance itself from those sentiments - and we quite rightly dismiss those sentiments as the ramblings of a nut-job.
But with Muslims - because of inherent racism - the whole religion is held to account.

Were no better here - it's not just an American thing.

There's a video of a Sacramento baptist preacher praising the Orlando attack in his sermon. "Are you sad that 50 paedophiles were killed today? Um, no I think that's great! I think that helps society."

Surely he should be arrested for hate speech? What total scum. Imagine growing up gay in a place like that. F**king horrific.

Quote: Lazzard @ 14th June 2016, 2:30 PM BST

My point was that you have Southern Baptist preaching hate against the gay community, but the religion as a whole is not asked to distance itself from those sentiments - and we quite rightly dismiss those sentiments as the ramblings of a nut-job.
But with Muslims - because of inherent racism - the whole religion is held to account.

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I don't really know much about Evangelicals, Baptists, the Old Testament or Christianity in general, but if they're preaching hate then they can kiss my ass. That said, I haven't heard about anything other than a small church pastor running his mouth off in a sermon. As the map I posted pointed out, hundreds of millions of Muslims live in nations where homosexuality is punishable by death. That's not exactly a handful of nutjobs, but rather a sizeable percentage of the religion as a whole. It's not all Muslims, but it's quite a large number of them. I don't care if they preach a distasteful sermon, but when they start murdering people and encouraging their followers to do so, then it's time to speak up.

If the Orlando shooter isn't representative of Islam as a whole (and he isn't) then he isn't representative of all gun owners, either, so why should they have their constitutional rights infringed because of him?

Quote: DaButt @ 14th June 2016, 2:01 PM BST

As I've said before, it takes about one second to drop an empty mag and insert a new one and continue firing, and in that one second it's highly unlikely that anyone is going to try to attack the shooter. They're going to be running for the exits or cowering on the floor.

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Except in a number of cases most famously Gabrielle Giffords shooting, the gunman was tackled to the ground whilst reloading.

You can keep making your point, I'll just keep pointing out you're wrong.

Quote: DaButt @ 14th June 2016, 2:01 PM BST

I use my AR-15 for hunting. Why should I have to keep it locked away at a gun range?

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Because if you keep yours locked up so does the next person likely to carry out a massacre. I have a kilo of semtex stuffed into an Alf cushion I carry on the tube to use as a cushion. Why shouldn't I just because the next guy wants to use it to blow the tube up?

Quote: Lazzard @ 14th June 2016, 10:04 AM BST

And on a separate point, I note that no-one's asking the Baptist church to distance themselves from that hate-mongering baptist preacher from the boondocks who openly celebrated the death of 5o 'sodomites' - the way they scream for the Muslim church to distance itself from the nut-jobs who hi-jack their peace-loving religion to fulfil their squalid fantasies.

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Oops sorry, Lazzard already covered that prick.

Quote: DaButt @ 14th June 2016, 2:01 PM BST

A
I use my AR-15 for hunting. Why should I have to keep it locked away at a gun range?

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Exactly what are you hunting that requires a semi automatic carbine in 5.56mm? Not bears it isn't powerful enough, usually deer. Are the deer in Texas especially agressive or are you just such a lousy shot you need upto 30 bullets and a one second reload?

Quote: DaButt @ 14th June 2016, 2:01 PM BST

One constant in America's ever-growing gun laws is that cops, retired cops and politicians are exempt from the rules. The reason is clear: politicians don't want to be constrained by the same rules as their constituents, and they need cops and their powerful unions (NRA, anyone?) to support the new laws. Here's a newsflash: cops, off-duty cops and retired cops commit gun crimes and murders just like the unwashed masses. Why should they be exempt from legislation?

It should be noted that the Orlando shooter had a degree in criminal justice and attended a police academy. He was highly trained and passed multiple background tests and psychological evaluations. He possessed a valid license to carry and was licensed in Florida to serve as an armed security guard. Stricter licensing would have done nothing to stop him from going on his rampage.

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Yes there is a terrible problem with all of your politicians using firearms irresponsibly. I was amazed when the Clinton, Sanders debate descended into a gun fight.

Or maybe most countries with semi-liberal gun laws like Australia have permitted off-duty officers and politicians to carry firearms out of a justified fear of assassination. Is anyone trying to kill you DaButt?

As for passing psychological tests lets break this down into 2 parts.

1 There is no simple readily applicable psychological test that picks out homicidal tendencies, can't be fooled or predicts changing in mental health states. Anyone who says they exist is a big fibber. The NRA might as well be talking about fitting shark repellent to planes to make them safe from leaping sharks.

2 You know what your police forces are not exactly viewed by many people in or out of your country as the home of calmness or even good mental health. The cop who gave a kid a heart attack and brain injury with a tazer passed all his exams too.

Quote: zooo @ 14th June 2016, 3:03 PM BST

Surely he should be arrested for hate speech? What total scum. Imagine growing up gay in a place like that.

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Hate speech laws are a stupid thing and an extremely slippery slope. Imagine President Obama being arrested for applauding the killing of Osama bin Laden...

I'll bet that guy's congregation numbers in the tens of people. I doubt any gays are part of it and it's certainly not indicative of the sentiment in Sacramento as a whole.