Have just watched first series episode 2 again.

Bernard and Manny are just getting to know each other. Manny asks Bernard what the L stands for in Bernard L. Black. The answer is Ludwig. Why Ludwig?, asks Manny. Bernard shoots Manny an unkempt, wild-eyed look which is supposed to be (and is a fair attempt at) a rendering of the classic portrayal of the moody, ill-tempered German composer.

There is hardly a titter from the audience. It just doesn't register.

I'm sure Messrs Moran and Linehan learned something of a lesson there....

Quote: Jolanta Zofia Nowak @ August 16 2008, 12:27 PM BST

Have just watched first series episode 2 again.

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Did you get the joke the first time round?

Yep.

It was only on the second viewing that I noticed what little reaction there was from the studio audience.

There is so much else happening in a studio, it's easy to miss visual gags. Especially something so small and obscure. I'm not at all surprised that there was no reaction.

Quote: Jolanta Zofia Nowak @ August 16 2008, 12:34 PM BST

Yep.

It was only on the second viewing that I noticed what little reaction there was from the studio audience.

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Well I don't think this really relates to dumbing down, at all. It's just an obscure reference. If he had rendered an accurate impression of Joe Strummer instead would you have got it?

Well, I do believe we are getting to the nub of the matter.

What is 'obscure' for ONE person....

Most sitcoms stay largely within their own worlds. No matter how familiar they may be with classical music, most people don't watch something in the frame of mind which would allow them to notice such a momentary expression.

You're obviously some kind of genius Jolanta, I don't know why you bother with us.

Quote: Jolanta Zofia Nowak @ August 16 2008, 12:38 PM BST

Well, I do believe we are getting to the nub of the matter.

What is 'obscure' for ONE person....

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For me comedy is ideally inclusive, I'd prefer to use references the majority would 'get' rather than exclusive deeply cultural references.

I was in the audience during the filming, you can clearly hear me shout "What the feck was that about?" in the silence. Bill Bailey publicly apologised after and claimed he was just suppressing an eggy burp.

Quote: Jolanta Zofia Nowak @ August 16 2008, 12:38 PM BST

Well, I do believe we are getting to the nub of the matter.

What is 'obscure' for ONE person....

View original

Is obscure.

How can you possibly not think that's obscure? You get it but the majority of people won't. What's so important about someone whose music is only relevant to a tiny slice of the population? Hardly anyone listens to Beethoven regularly, so why should they recognise his facial expression?

Surely there's nothing wrong with chucking in some obscure references as long as there are loads of other easily accessible ones.

There's nothing wrong with using "cultural" references so long as the joke you're making can work on both a superficial and (if you intend) a deeper level. For example, in one of my sitcom scripts (hopefully into development) on the re-draft I make a joke referencing Maya Angelou's 'I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings' (which I personally find awful). There is a superficial joke made about it, which you don't need to know about the book to find (hopefully) funny. However, for those who know about the book, it is also a culturally dismissive joke. Erm... what I'm trying to say is that it's fine to put in more subtle and sophisticated jokes in your scripts, so long as they don't predominate. And it's fun to put in a reference that perhaps only a small percentage of the audience will get. ('The Simpsons' writers know this only all too well, of course.)

Actually I do think the Divine Comedy (Hannon) is a bit of a pretentious twat.

His voice is so irritatingly smug.

A similar situation occured in the classic Fawlty Towers episode The Wedding Party. The French woman, Mrs Penweir, makes Basil think she is coming on to him. Anyway, Basil and Sybil are in bed and there is a knock on the door. Basil thinks it is Mrs Penweir and he shouts out really loud 'SOMEONE AT THE DOOR SYBIL!!!' I thought that was hysterically funny, yet not the slightest bit of laughter in the studio audience.

As Tim points out, the Simpsons, which is sometimes mistakenly classified as a children's show, does obscure jokes all the time. In fact part of the reason it appeals to a wide demographic is because they do obscure jokes. Successful art works at a number a levels. If both children and the intelligentsia can feel that what you are doing is aimed at them, then that is a fine job of writing.