Charley,

Idealism is admirable, commendable even but people are too different for it to work.
What follows is an opinion.

Personally I feel Bush gets a lot of unnecessary stick over Iraq. I don't know the man so who am I to say whether his deeds are done out of warped intentions or sincere belief they are for good. But I am only a man who doesn't profess to have the answers, only some opinions, possibly based on half truths and propoganda. Too many are quick to castigate the man but why is he so wrong? I don't mean 'is he?', but 'why?'
Should Saddam have been allowed to continue to rule the Iraqi people with brutality and genocide? It appears that might well have been the preferable evil. I'm sure the Sunni Arabs would have preferred it so. Whereas the Shi'ites and Kurds might beg to differ.
Either way, if you Charley were an Iraqi woman you certainly wouldn't be allowed to voice such opinions in a public forum.
We have differing views, probably many, and I feel fortunate for that. Long may we be able to debate them.

Well, until you realise you're wrong!

Gary shuffles away with that pain in his head, having thought for longer than the tablets normally allow. The doctors will not be best pleased!

In my opinion states are sovereign untill they attck the interests or territory of another state. Therefore the Iraq war is illegal and therefore should not have taken place. It is also the reason we should leave now.

Quote: Charley @ September 6, 2007, 3:07 PM

We are making a grave mistake in history here.

View original

"We" in this case referring to people who have voted Labour at any point post-1996.

Quote: ajp29 @ September 6, 2007, 11:45 PM

In my opinion states are sovereign untill they attck the interests or territory of another state. Therefore the Iraq war is illegal and therefore should not have taken place. It is also the reason we should leave now.

View original

Eh? Sovereignty has nothing to do with attacking other states. It has to do with the power to self-govern. The attacked state loses sovereignty should the attack be successful, however.

And to that end, neither the UK nor Iraq are sovereign nations.

Quote: Aaron @ September 7, 2007, 12:12 AM

Eh? Sovereignty has nothing to do with attacking other states. It has to do with the power to self-govern. The attacked state loses sovereignty should the attack be successful, however.

And to that end, neither the UK nor Iraq are sovereign nations.

View original

I never said attacking or being attacked has anything to do with sovereignty. My point is that an aggressive state (government) loses its right to sovereignty.

Your second point is true which is why democratic states put a hell of a lot of sacrifice into defending themselves.

Basically I would probably classify myself as, in war terms, an isolationist only interested in defence and not aggression which is why i disagree with the foreign policies of the UK and USA governments.

Quote: ajp29 @ September 7, 2007, 12:26 AM

I never said attacking or being attacked has anything to do with sovereignty. My point is that an aggressive state (government) loses its right to sovereignty.

View original

Riiight, ok, yes. Well fair enough. I don't quite agree, but fair enough.

It has always been the same from the playground to the battlefield. The one with more power wins. Iraq was the weak and USA is the strong.

Biggest mistake we ever made was letting those jokers get anywhere near power.

Bush & Blair deserve stick over Iraq.
They have lied. They stated weapons of mass destruction, knowing for well there was none.
The war is for the US and Britain to gain control of Iraq's huge oil reserves. It has been going on since 1991.
Sept 11 was used to accelerate the US & their plans to an oil pipeline from Turkmenistan to Pakistan.

The US want to gain control of Iraq's oilfields, to establish military bases in Iraq in order to dominate The Middle East & ultimatley to establish control over all countries dependent on oil, and to remove the threat to Israel posed by Iraq.

Iraq had begun trading her oil in euros, rather than the dollar.This paved the way for other oil producers to also do this. Now that is going to Fook up Poor little old America's economy.

The war in Iraq is without doubt Immoral.

That said I am 100% behind our guys & gals who are involved in this war, risking their lives in the name of GB and the USA.

Fair comment mate!

Thankyou Frankie.
Garyd thanks for your comments. Can I just add one on the Iraqi women point you posted. I am not an Iraqi women & whilst I do not wish to speak on behalf of them I can offer up an opinion.
That is their culture. Yes some if not all,of these women wish for a change in opinion regarding them. However after reading reports from the likes of Jo Wilding,a British human rights campaigner. I would imagine it is the least of their worries right now. That is a cultural problem for them, not a reason for war. I am sure they were promised all sorts of wonderful things by the US & the UK,before the first bombs exploded on Baghdad. Killing & wounding their children, men & fellow women.

Infact maybe for a more true life opinion, here is a a weblog by a young Iraqi woman living in the northern city of Mosul. It is a fantistic & heart warming read.

http://www.riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

This is obviously a subject close to your heart Charley and I agree with what you say. I did a corperate gig at Sandhurst a few moths back and have a friend who has just finished his officer training and I have to say, our soldiers are prepared to go to whichever country they're told to simply because they have to. Regardless of weather the war is illegal or not, we've commited troops and they have to go. Whilst researching a script, someone went to a military base where the soldiers were based here in Britain and when asked what they wanted to do, they said "Go to Iraq". The British Army is primaraly being used as a force for good. Amongst all the shooting and bombing, our troops are delivering humanintarian aid, policeing local villages, helping to build bridges both literal and metorphorical. Don't see your son as just cannon fodder, the word "hero" is thrown around too much but your son is one of them as are all of our troops. They're trained to fight and that's what they must do. There will always be casualities, that's inevitable but I hope and pray your son isn't one of them. This is a message to everyone, don't blame our troops, blame the government. Look at yourselves and decide what we can do. It takes a lot, but we can do something

Thanks Ash. Some fab points there.
Yes our troops are wonderful. Of that I agree. I wear my "Proud to support our troops" band with pride. I can not stress my support to them enough. By cannon fodder I meant that is what the government think of them. Not us the public. I apologies I should have stressed that clearly.
Look at the recent case of Ben Parkinson. However the great pepole of GB have raised above & beyond, in record time, the money needed to challenge this draconian system of compensation.
We really are, in the most, a fab nation.

Quote: Charley @ September 7, 2007, 1:08 PM

Iraq had begun trading her oil in euros, rather than the dollar.This paved the way for other oil producers to also do this. Now that is going to Fook up Poor little old America's economy.

View original

That has to be the biggest mistake of the 20th Century (and quite a large proportion of the general biggest mistake of letting them get more power); letting them get so much in the post-war loan deals.

The Americans have proved time and time again that they neither deserve the power and influence that they presently hold, nor can handle the responsibility of it. The words "run", "lunatics" and "asylum" spring to mind.

Sadly I belive what your saying to be true Aaron.

Is this a comedy web site?