Quote: Pingl @ June 11 2013, 11:04 AM BST

You shouldn't underestimate Major, he was a clever and actually quite charming man. I look back on the Major era with a degree of fondness, he was in my opinion the last truly one nation Tory to gain power. Although he made some stupid mistakes, Rail privatisation and protection of the ERM, he left the Labour government and very favourable economic legacy, possibly more by luck than judgement perhaps, but then the same could be said of Blair. Labour will only change by the real breaking of the new consensus, no one is talking strikes, quite the opposite. What we need is Government encouraged growth, an end to a blinkered austerity programme and the persecution of the poor and infirm. Whilst the left splinters or calls each other windbags UKIP will reap the whirlwind. The left must configure a palatable and practical growth policy. By taking it back to the people I hope some new and dynamic figures may emerge. PS Kinnock was never going to win anything, lovely man, sincere politician but could never overcome a public perception that painted him into a corner. The British hate people who want power to much or expect it. He is and always will be less of a what if more of a I wish, Smith on the other hand like Gaitskill is one of the great what ifs.

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But much of this I agree with. I think what is needed is a revolotuinary approach.

Firstly the welfare system may have been established by Labor but it was reshaped by Thatcher. This must stop, I am sick of giving advice to unemployed people that they shouldn't take a job. Because JSA STILL disinsentives employment, makes flexible work impossible. And housing benefit needs to stop being a way of shovelling taxes into the pockets of landlords.

Secondly I think we need to get over the idea of the NHS as a provider of services and rather a funder of services. It's no accident that France, Holland and most other European powers with better health outcomes for all follow a state controlled insurance model.

Quote: Pingl @ June 11 2013, 11:11 AM BST

The unions talk about it, but it is a proposal that I hope can be blocked, they are so obviously counter productive and anti the growth agenda as to be I agree a digression. But the use of strikes as a weapon must always be left open. The great threat within any assembly of the left is the removal of labour, but that is one bomb, that with the history of the eighties, may be more of a deterrent than a weapon of destruction. Cases must be fought within and won, that is democracy. I am always in favour of civil disobedience, it is the last refuge of the decent and caring.

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Sorry but the People's Assembly reminds me of Alan Bleasdale's excellent GBH.

With it's sour note that most hard left movements are so inimical to left wing success, they might as well be Tory plots.

My local MPs Jeremy Corbyn, I thought yay I can vote for a Labor MP. The I read his manifesto and voted liberal.

What a charmless self indulgent failure.

Quote: sootyj @ June 11 2013, 11:12 AM BST

But much of this I agree with. I think what is needed is a revolotuinary approach.

Firstly the welfare system may have been established by Labor but it was reshaped by Thatcher. This must stop, I am sick of giving advice to unemployed people that they shouldn't take a job. Because JSA STILL disinsentives employment, makes flexible work impossible. And housing benefit needs to stop being a way of shovelling taxes into the pockets of landlords.

Secondly I think we need to get over the idea of the NHS as a provider of services and rather a funder of services. It's no accident that France, Holland and most other European powers with better health outcomes for all follow a state controlled insurance model.

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I can't disagree with any of that, the NHS is a holy cow that needs to be demystified and I can only concur with your description and I think an insurance model would be the way forward. Unfortunately it is a hot potato that would cause internecine war within the left. Welfare needs to be defused as an issue, but the Tories love to use it as a scapegoat for the failures of the banking system, it is in their interests to do so. We need to show people it is in their interest to protect and rebuild the welfare system.

There are radical and unpalatable parts of every movement, they must be heard and discredited. Then and only then can we move forward. You cannot ignore them and neither should we.

I wish one party, I don't care if it's the Nazi party would say.

"The problem is not the disabled won't work, it's that employers won't employ them."

The anti austerity belief that benefits must continue at the same level is unworkable. If only for the simple reason that more disabled people are living longer lives thanks to medical science.

Many of the people I know on benefits who can't work and are having their benefits fiddled with. Would work if the law and government wasn't so bloody indulgent to employers.

Quote: sootyj @ June 11 2013, 11:25 AM BST

I wish one party, I don't care if it's the Nazi party would say.

"The problem is not the disabled won't work, it's that employers won't employ them."

The anti austerity belief that benefits must continue at the same level is unworkable. If only for the simple reason that more disabled people are living longer lives thanks to medical science.

Many of the people I know on benefits who can't work and are having their benefits fiddled with. Would work if the law and government wasn't so bloody indulgent to employers.

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Unfortunately because of many reasons, some of them to do with the idiocy and intransigence of the left, that is the consensus at present. As things get worse something will have to enter the breech and create a sensible and workable policy that will create a more equitable society. This won't happen if this is the right who do it like UKIP. The left must wake from its slumber and get back to basic principles, fairness, equality etc. Business and the old capitalism is discredited, we are at a crossroads, and we need to insure it is a the road less traveled, one of justice and freedom with care and equity built in. We must stop the old political mantra of scapegoating and encourage people to see that it is in their own interests to care for the needy, we need a clear and concise agenda, above the secrecy and in fighting of politics. A radical rethinking is needed, but I want the starting point to be from the left not the right

That is true. But if the assembly wants to be taken seriously it's time to put super annuated bores like the Marxist and Communist parties out to pasture. And to start with negotiation before resistance.

I think Red Ken's mayoral reign is proof that people will accept some quite radical people and ideas. When they are sufficently well presented.

Indeed and we must look at the unpalatable. A total rehaul of the NHS and pensions, the weakest must be ring fenced. We must end stealth taxation and return to a workable income tax. National work schemes, the nationalisation of valuable properties that could add to State wealth, water, electric, gas etc, this would also insure against that people who need help with essential services could be assured that at a governmental level. A whole new agenda is needed, and no faction is going to like it. If this means breaking with the left then so be it, but I still feel this is the natural home of equality.

I think a reasonable approach from the left would work with the fact most people are basically generous and fair.

But the conservative play very succesfully on the fear that;

"Labor will take everything from you, then waste on it on inefficent systems and the undeserving."

And as long as Labor is plagued with the likes of Benn and Union block voting, then it's an argument they will win again and again. I belong to a union, I belong to a political party they are separate entities.

That is what we need to fight against. The right has its loonies, they either sideline them or kick them upstairs. The old guard will always block the new, the press will always listen and a love a loony. That is why we must go to the grass roots, to the people and let them direct, with a little gentle nudging. The problem is that we are an intrinsically racist nation who wants to bring back hanging. But we must educate and inform and make them see that it is in their interest to create a fairer society. Difficult of course, but it must be started grass roots up not the other way.

I must also say that some modern Union leaders speak more sense than some politicians. The weight of their influence needs to be made more in proportion with their real importance. But now is not the time to reorganise Labour political systems, that will have to wait. Now is the time for united action, with all welcome, before it is to late

Problem is unions are dominant in both Labour and the peoples assembly

Quote: sootyj @ June 11 2013, 12:56 PM BST

Problem is unions are dominant in both Labour and the peoples assembly

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Intrinsic not necessarily dominant. The Unions are far more willing to negotiate now, they have learned some lessons from the recent past. They have a part to play.

Ah, it's nice to see you two getting on.

More tea Jack?

Yes , you two sort out the worlds problems whilst the rest of us count to a million and talk about cats

And another thing.....

Quote: Pingl @ June 11 2013, 9:29 PM BST

And another thing.....

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there are more people that do than don't.

Quote: sootyj @ June 11 2013, 12:56 PM BST

Problem is unions are dominant in both Labour and the peoples assembly

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I read this as onions.