Quote: sootyj @ 6th January 2016, 3:54 PM GMT

But surely it's like health and safety?

It's about acceptable risk. You can't prevent every building fire, most fire extinguishers don't work properly.

But if you lower the risk, have well marked fire escapes that are clear and smoke detectors.

Then you reduce the number of lethal fires and avoid the deaths than can be avoided.

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A better scenario would be to say that while the majority of Americans use fire in a safe manner, there are still lots of arsonists and many people die in accidental fires, so it's the government's responsibility to ensure public safety by outlawing containers of flammable liquid and allowing no more than 1 match per matchbook, and they must be sold by federally licensed salespeople after a lengthy background check.

Quote: sootyj @ 6th January 2016, 4:09 PM GMT

and what percentage dead from lack of health insurance?

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Essentially zero, I'd reckon.

no but I bet if built a new house on your block I'd have to follow all sorts of laws to ensure it was fire safe, if I started selling fireworks and kept leaaky containers of petiel the police and fire department would be interested

Quote: DaButt @ 6th January 2016, 4:12 PM GMT

A better scenario would be to say that while the majority of Americans use fire in a safe manner, there are still lots of arsonists and many people die in accidental fires, so it's the government's responsibility to ensure public safety by outlawing containers of flammable liquid and allowing no more than 1 match per matchbook, and they must be sold by federally licensed salespeople after a lengthy background check.

Essentially zero, I'd reckon.

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http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-to-lack-of-health-coverage/

you're not really convincing yourself

Quote: sootyj @ 6th January 2016, 4:17 PM GMT

if I started selling fireworks and kept leaaky containers of petiel the police and fire department would be interested

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There are several fireworks stands near my home. We had quite a display on New Year's Eve. They were set off by my neighbor, the firefighter.

Quote: sootyj @ 6th January 2016, 4:17 PM GMT

you're not really convincing yourself

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We could do this all day, but this graph of hospitalization death rates from the NHS speaks volumes:

that's a pretty graph but I've no idea what it represents, if it doesn't represent life expectancy of uninsured US citizens against insured it don't represent much.
Shit I get paid to write begging letters on Go fund me for your fellow uninsure citizens.

I'm sure your neighbour the fireman does run a firework stand or set them off. I'm also sure they're reputable legal ones, not a couple of sticks of dynamite with sparkles sprinkled on them.

Quote: DaButt @ 6th January 2016, 3:47 PM GMT

Japan's suicide rate is triple the UK's and both nations have extremely tough firearm laws.

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Surely they swords - or aircraft.

Quote: DaButt @ 6th January 2016, 4:29 PM GMT

There are several fireworks stands near my home. We had quite a display on New Year's Eve. They were set off by my neighbor, the firefighter.

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Was that to give himself something to do?

Quote: sootyj @ 6th January 2016, 4:45 PM GMT

that's a pretty graph but I've no idea what it represents, if it doesn't represent life expectancy of uninsured US citizens against insured it don't represent much.

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As the NHS admits, "Since 2004 things have improved, but in 2012 a patient in the average NHS hospital was still 45% more likely to die in hospital than if they had been admitted to a US hospital."

http://www.nhs.uk/news/2013/09September/Pages/death-risk-much-higher-in-English-than-US-hospitals.aspx

Obamacare forces all Americans to maintain health insurance and penalizes those who don't. It is subsidized (all the way up to being free in many cases) for people who can't afford it. People who don't have insurance do so voluntarily.

Quote: Chappers @ 6th January 2016, 4:49 PM GMT

Surely they swords - or aircraft.

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I believe that swords, like firearms, are banned in Japan.

I think they're partial to hanging.

it's a none peer reviewed study, about as much use an unloaded pistol

> than if they had been admitted to a US hospital."

Do uninsured americans get into a US hospital?

If not those graphs are wildly skewed.

Quote: billwill @ 6th January 2016, 7:12 PM GMT

Do uninsured americans get into a US hospital?

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Of course.

Quote: DaButt @ 6th January 2016, 4:29 PM GMT

We could do this all day, but this graph of hospitalization death rates from the NHS speaks volumes:

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It is a shocking graph. But you can rarely compare private and public records in the same country, let alone across countries. American Hospitals are under far more pressure due to competition and litigation, to keep (manipulate) these figures down at all costs. Many adjustments occur, so for example the NHS definition of Hospital I believe is wider than the American one. Also I imagine they strip out A&E figures and where is the palliative care taking place ? Why isn't cancer down as a listed aliment ?

The NHS is saddled with keeping hold of patients way longer than needed because of waiting lists for palliative care, care homes or home help arrangements. An issue I doubt America has, as hospital bed tend to be the most expensive accommodation, so I bet they shift them out quicker.

I read of a Hospital that "discharged" moments before someone died, so they died in Hospital, but technically don't hit the figures. I'm not aware of any reputable reason why the rates, if correctly compared, would create such a huge disparity. A difference as high as 45% really does scream wrong/not like for like. Especially when America has higher levels of obesity and £30K extra deaths due to guns. It's a Sarah Palin graph, looks good but full of b*ll, in my humble opinion.

Quote: Nick Nockerty @ 6th January 2016, 8:01 PM GMT

It's a Sarah Palin graph, looks good but full of b*ll, in my humble opinion.

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It came from http://www.nhs.uk. Is that not the official NHS website?

Quote: DaButt @ 6th January 2016, 8:12 PM GMT

It came from http://www.nhs.uk. Is that not the official NHS website?

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Fantastic. The NHS is currently gunning for 11% pay rises for junior Drs off the back of their biggest ever recorded overspend. So this graph should help that. Also they're reeling due to a multitude of false reporting claims, the biggest stories being under reporting hospital deaths. So here again this graph suggests that issue isn't wide spread (not). Add to the fact the NHS is the single largest employer in Europe with 1.2 million on payroll (plus agency staff) and you have the most formidable union in Europe, experts at PR.

Da Butt, could you send me the exact link to this graph, as I'm interested to see the surrounding rhetoric. Feel free to PM it me, Thanks.

Talking of guns, this might be of interest http://www.scotsman.com/news/scots-police-teach-nypd-how-to-avoid-deadly-force-1-3974216

Sources https://www.facebook.com/ParentsAgainstGunViolence/photos/a.416647195073938.95672.413407645397893/962868703785115/

(If that link works.)

Quote: keewik @ 7th January 2016, 10:29 AM GMT

Talking of guns, this might be of interest http://www.scotsman.com/news/scots-police-teach-nypd-how-to-avoid-deadly-force-1-3974216

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I like how they report that "those who took part in the recent visit to Tulliallan said they had experienced an 'epiphany'" while later identifying that quote as coming from a Scottish officer.

About 50 American police officers are shot and killed each year. Disarm them and the number will reach triple digits at the very least. Any training that saves lives is a good thing, but comparing apples and oranges is ridiculous. My city isn't even one of the largest in the country, but it's about as big as the top 10 cities in Scotland combined.

Quote: zooo @ 7th January 2016, 10:52 AM GMT

Sources https://www.facebook.com/ParentsAgainstGunViolence/photos/a.416647195073938.95672.413407645397893/962868703785115/

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Purposely dumbing down the incidents and then putting them into first-person quotations is purposely misleading and dishonest.

Lee Rigby killers: "I don't like soldiers and I saw a soldier, so I killed him."