Quote: Firkin @ 24th June 2017, 1:28 PM

The problem is with hard right (and left) leaders like Trumps is they're are so hypersensitive there is absolutely no point accusing them of anything, they just deny it. So no point debating with them. Do you think Trump would ever change his mind, unless it benefited himself ?

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Hasn't Trump changed his mind on a few different things, then completely denied he ever held the opposite opinion, calling his own tweets 'fake news'?

Anyway, it's inaccurate to call him hard right. His trade and economic policies are protectionist (marks of the left), for starters. He's a mad, intolerant authoritarian. Much like Hitler, he has policies across the spectrum of left and right.

Quote: Firkin @ 24th June 2017, 1:28 PM

The Tories have not had a majority in 5 out of the last 6 elections. Labour have had three, including 2 landslides, which speaks volumes.

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Yet they've also gained more votes and higher vote share. Can't just look at the number of seats. It's a weird world.

Quote: Chris Hallam @ 24th June 2017, 12:43 PM

What did you actually say DaButt?...I looked it up. You said Palestinians had "a penchant for violence".

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Who could blame them, with the behaviour of the Israeli state?

Quote: Aaron @ 24th June 2017, 2:48 PM

Hasn't Trump changed his mind on a few different things, then completely denied he ever held the opposite opinion, calling his own tweets 'fake news'?

Anyway, it's inaccurate to call him hard right. His trade and economic policies are protectionist (marks of the left), for starters."

There's nothing left wing about being protectionist.

"Yet they've also gained more votes and higher vote share. Can't just look at the number of seats. It's a weird world.

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The Tories have only won more votes and a larger vote share in three of the last six elections. On average, Labour have won more votes, more seats and a larger share of the vote than the Tories in the last six General Elections

Trump is a right wing conservative to his core!
He supports tax cuts especially for the rich.
He backs spending cuts on everything except defence.
He's anti climate change.
He's against international trade.
He's against Obamacare.
Anti immigration.
Anti equality legislation.

Quote: Chris Hallam @ 25th June 2017, 10:45 AM

Trump is a right wing conservative to his core!

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/07/09/ths-many-ways-in-which-donald-trump-was-once-a-liberals-liberal/ http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/21/politics/donald-trump-election-democrat/index.html http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/07/28/426888268/donald-trumps-flipping-political-donations

Quote: Chris Hallam @ 25th June 2017, 10:45 AM

He's anti climate change.

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This is not right-wing. This is his weird view that it's some kind of Chinese plot against America. The man is a mentalist.

Quote: Chris Hallam @ 25th June 2017, 10:45 AM

He's against international trade.

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This is more left-wing than right.

Quote: Chris Hallam @ 25th June 2017, 10:45 AM

Anti immigration.
Anti equality legislation.

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He is deeply illiberal and socially conservative in many ways, but neither of these are inherently, exclusively, or necessarily of the right.

Quote: Chris Hallam @ 24th June 2017, 3:03 PM

The Tories have only won more votes and a larger vote share in three of the last six elections. On average, Labour have won more votes, more seats and a larger share of the vote than the Tories in the last six General Elections

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What a load of bollocks. What does that prove?

There is NO realistic alternative at the moment to the Tories and Corbyn is cynically visiting Glastonbury* because those poor deluded kids influenced by the NME do not realise what he really stands for.

* Before posting this I realised I had posted Woodstock!

Quote: Chappers @ 25th June 2017, 5:04 PM

Corbyn is cynically visiting Glastonbury* because those poor deluded kids influenced by the NME do not realise what he really stands for.

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There's a theory that we need a good dose of socialist Government for the new generation to realise how horrendous it is.

I don't disagree, but can you imagine the sheer pain and horror?

Quote: Aaron @ 25th June 2017, 5:12 PM

There's a theory that we need a good dose of socialist Government for the new generation to realise how horrendous it is.

I don't disagree, but can you imagine the sheer pain and horror?

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Just send them on a holiday to Venezuela?

Hmmm. Lots of links showing Trump didn't used to be conservative but definitely is now.
Not everyone on the Right denies climate change. But everyone who does is right wing. Any exceptions?
The Right are generally more inclined to introduce tariffs.
Can you name anything left wing he has done in office?

Quote: Chappers @ 25th June 2017, 5:04 PM

What a load of bollocks. What does that prove?!

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And completely true! Even though two people have denied it now.

Quote: Chris Hallam @ 25th June 2017, 7:52 PM

Hmmm. Lots of links showing Trump didn't used to be conservative but definitely is now.

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Like I originally, said, he's no right wing conservative; he's a horrible mish-mash of conflicting policy that suits his own ego.

Quote: Chris Hallam @ 25th June 2017, 7:52 PM

Not everyone on the Right denies climate change. But everyone who does is right wing. Any exceptions?

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Piers Corbyn.
More detailed here: https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/climate-deniers-left

Quote: Chris Hallam @ 25th June 2017, 7:52 PM

The Right are generally more inclined to introduce tariffs.

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This is bollocks, pure and simple.

This thread has really gripped Aaron. Haven't seen him this animated for a while.

Quote: Will Cam @ 25th June 2017, 9:20 PM

This thread has really gripped Aaron. Haven't seen him this animated for a while.

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Quote: Aaron @ 25th June 2017, 8:20 PM

Like I originally, said, he's no right wing conservative; he's a horrible mish-mash of conflicting policy that suits his own ego."

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None of which seem to be left wing at all. An odd coincidence!
Trump, as I say, supports tax cuts for the rich, increased defence spending, reduced social security spending, is anti-immigration, anti universal healthcare. He favours an America First approach and higher tariffs and denies climate change.
I think most people reading this would agree this makes him pretty right wing!
All of his support comes from the Right, he constantly derides liberals and the Left. Far more right wingers support all of these individual issues than does anyone on the Left.
I'm sure you can find one or two lefties in the world who support his proposed boost to defence spending and others who support his position on health, just as some Tories oppose privatisation or cutting NHS spending.
Does this mean Trump is not a conservative? Of course not. Whether he had adopted this position for reasons of political expediency or not is irrelevant: in practice everything he does or says in office has been geared towards right wing causes.
It does you credit that despite your own conservatism, you recognise he's a disgrace and a public embarrassment. But let's not pretend he's something he's not.
If it swims like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Quote: Aaron @ 25th June 2017, 8:20 PM

Like I originally, said, he's (Trump) no right wing conservative; he's a horrible mish-mash of conflicting policy that suits his own ego.

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It's true Trump is a miss-mash, but most people do not reflect the exact detail of any parties manifesto, hence why we are categorised by our vote. As Trump is a egotistical (selfish) capitalist, he would undoubtedly vote Conservative in this country, hence Chris's point. Although I fully appreciate why you would want to distance Trump from the right, it is the best match.

You also make a valid point about Trumps protectionism not being conservative necessarily, it more akin to far right far left, as we've already established these meet at the top of the Political circle. So maybe we're arguing over extremes, rather than left and right. I note many warning examples about "socialism" in this thread are about the extremes. Maybe we need centring ?

Some fair points from both. I'm not arguing that many of his policies don't fit in with the right; rather that he himself is not a typical right-winger.

American politics is a very weird and scary place.

I would just like to point out Aaron is right about there being no such thing as 'austerity'

Well at least not for Northern Ireland now...

Quote: Chris Hallam

And completely true! Even though two people have denied it now.

I'm not saying it's not true. Just that it doesn't mean anything. You can make anything up with statistics.