British comedy is no longer funny Page 6

Quote: Aaron @ January 25 2012, 11:28 PM GMT

In the 'good old days', Bill Cotton said he wanted something, so put a talented writer and a talented producer together to make it. Now there's umpteen unnamed executives of development and commissioning, writers, producers, executive producers, associate producers, production executives, script executives, commissioning executives at indies, and God knows who else. Far, far too many fingers in the pie.

I think that's the point. One dictator imposing their vision will lead to things with a singular vision. You can love it or loathe it but at least it's there. If you have ten people making decisions, you'll get something which no-one was incensed enough by to veto, which sadly also probably means that no-one was enthusiastic about either.

Quote: Tokyo Nambu @ January 25 2012, 11:39 PM GMT

I think that's the point. One dictator imposing their vision will lead to things with a singular vision. You can love it or loathe it but at least it's there. If you have ten people making decisions, you'll get something which no-one was incensed enough by to veto, which sadly also probably means that no-one was enthusiastic about either.

Quite. Reminds me of the Churchill quote: "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life."

If no one in the group has argued against, its worth may actually be quite debatable.

I think it's worth saying something in defence of British comedy writers. As a sitcom writer who's been on the cusp of getting one of his original shows produced, it's a very tough time to be a new, previously unproduced writer, maybe more so than it was even just five or ten years ago. A producer/director (of some standing) who kindly reads (and even enjoys) my scripts, recently noted to me what a strange time it is in comedy commissioning - especially in sitcom. No-one seems to be really sure what commissioners want, it seems. He (again kindly) commented that given the quality of my work he was surprised I didn't already have a string of production credits to my name. I - and I'm sure many other unknown writers, are trying to write original and funny shows, but it's very hard to win through because a) you're writing something a little less comparable to what's currently being commissioned and b) you've never had a sitcom you've written produced before.

All the networks want new, funny, original comedies - but they tend to go to the same writers to get these, i.e. those with a record of produced work. Even if some of these writers haven't made many people laugh with their recent work, they're still an industry-recognised name. The other thing that seems to be increasingly common is to let well-known comedians/comic actors have a crack at writing their own sitcom. It doesn't matter if they can't write very well and have never had to learn their trade, they're still a name to attach to the project. It's very hard to be very good at two things - and writing and performing stand-up/performing scripted comedy is a different skill to being able to write scripted, narrative comedy. Some of course can do both, but most can't do it very well. Just as the vast majority of great writers have no talent for acting, most great comedy actors can't write. A simple fact of life, which seems to get ignored in the excitement of getting "the project" green-lit.

The above comments may be construed as a frustrated unknown being simply bitter and envious, but they're not intended to be. It's just how things seem to be. Networks wanting to be seen to be taking risks without actually taking many risks.

I can assure you though that there are a healthy number of talented potential sitcom writers out there, quietly studying and learning their trade, trying to write original and funny shows, whilst crossing their fingers that - somehow - one of their shows will win that elusive slot in the schedules. Trouble is, the job of writer doesn't appear to be the prime position in making sitcom that it once was. Writers with an original comedy "voice" tend to be overlooked in favour of hack comedy writers or, depressingly yet understandably, become hack comedy writers themselves in order to advance. It is difficult and frustrating when you see so many essentially poorly-written, unfunny shows making it to screen, but the whole culture of comedy commissioning in the UK seems to be rather chaotic and in somewhat poor health at the present time.

John Cleese doesn't get everything he says about the current state of British comedy right (imo), but one thing he's spot-on about is that it's increasingly forgotten that the quality of the script is the most important element to great sitcom. It does appear that "names attached" and the "freshness" of the "idea" have become more important than the quality of the writing. This is why so many shows don't fly. My only plea to commissioners would be to find the strongest scripts and then build the whole show around that script. Not around the specific "sit", a particular actor, a particular demographic etc... Concentrate on finding the greatest scripts, by whatever writer(s) and get people with proven track records to develop and nurture the writing and, hence, the show. This, of course, presumes that it's easy to spot great comedy writing on the page. It isn't. Which is why, after the quality of the writing, the second most important element in great comedy is the quality of the reader. I was lucky enough to once get a script of mine noticed by someone who really knows how to read a comedy script - I won't name her, but her record in producing/commissioning is incredible - and it was such a pleasure to be able to sit in a meeting for the best part of 2 hours as she went through this pilot script line by line, giving a great critique. Someone who really knows how to read a comedy script is vital to the whole process. I'm certain they're around, but perhaps there's not enough of them at the moment?

Maybe things will improve, maybe not. Meanwhile, us unknowns keep on writing, learning, submitting and crossing our fingers...

Hey Renegade Carpark,

Keep your beak up mate, it isn't that bad. Comedy shows that make you burst laughter are few and far between anyway. It's easy to think in retrospect that things were better back in the day but there were probably a lot of bland unfunny shows back then as well. We just remember the good ones. ;o)

Personally I think it's great that there are a lot more panel shows on these days showcasing our stand up comics. People like Frankie Boyle, Andy Parsons, Reginald D Hunter, Greg Davis, Rufus Hound, Jimmy Carr, all of whom have left me in stitches and most of them don't conform to safe family viewing.

Good sitcoms I feel are a bit harder to come by but The Inbetweeners, Coming of Age and Psychoville are all very funny sit-coms of the last few years. Psychoville in particular was very dark as this clip will vouch... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E-7A5DiquI

Also you mention how shows these days have become bland and doesn't push the envelope in regards to offensive material, and also mention shows like Michael McIntyre & Outnumbered. Well how about shows like Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em & The Good Life? They've been around decades and they're harmless. I'm sure it's only been in the last 5 or 6 years that you've been able to hear a rape joke on TV. Us Brits invented alternative comedy and we won't see it go without a fight. Sure Family Guy is hilarious but us Brits still know a thing or two about bad taste. Don't give up on UK comedy, we still do it better than the rest of the world.

Quote: Elliott Gill @ January 26 2012, 1:33 AM GMT

I'm sure it's only been in the last 5 or 6 years that you've been able to hear a rape joke on TV.

One of the great victories of alternative comedy was to render lazy, offensive comedians with a good line in coon and cripple jokes obsolete. And now we have rape jokes held up as the sine qua non of funny. Rape jokes told by men, of course. Frankie Boyle is held to be a genius because he's never met a disabled child he couldn't mock, and Ricky Gervais gets recommissioned even though he too thinks that bullying people with disabilities is hilarious. And now apparently rape is the new funny. It's a funny old world, isn't it?

Quote: Tim Walker @ January 26 2012, 12:44 AM GMT

I think it's worth saying something in defence of British comedy writers. As a sitcom writer who's been on the cusp of getting one of his original shows produced, it's a very tough time to be a new, previously unproduced writer, maybe more so than it was even just five or ten years ago. A producer/director (of some standing) who kindly reads (and even enjoys) my scripts, recently noted to me what a strange time it is in comedy commissioning - especially in sitcom. No-one seems to be really sure what commissioners want, it seems. He (again kindly) commented that given the quality of my work he was surprised I didn't already have a string of production credits to my name. I - and I'm sure many other unknown writers, are trying to write original and funny shows, but it's very hard to win through because a) you're writing something a little less comparable to what's currently being commissioned and b) you've never had a sitcom you've written produced before.

All the networks want new, funny, original comedies - but they tend to go to the same writers to get these, i.e. those with a record of produced work. Even if some of these writers haven't made many people laugh with their recent work, they're still an industry-recognised name. The other thing that seems to be increasingly common is to let well-known comedians/comic actors have a crack at writing their own sitcom. It doesn't matter if they can't write very well and have never had to learn their trade, they're still a name to attach to the project. It's very hard to be very good at two things - and writing and performing stand-up/performing scripted comedy is a different skill to being able to write scripted, narrative comedy. Some of course can do both, but most can't do it very well. Just as the vast majority of great writers have no talent for acting, most great comedy actors can't write. A simple fact of life, which seems to get ignored in the excitement of getting "the project" green-lit.

The above comments may be construed as a frustrated unknown being simply bitter and envious, but they're not intended to be. It's just how things seem to be. Networks wanting to be seen to be taking risks without actually taking many risks.

I can assure you though that there are a healthy number of talented potential sitcom writers out there, quietly studying and learning their trade, trying to write original and funny shows, whilst crossing their fingers that - somehow - one of their shows will win that elusive slot in the schedules. Trouble is, the job of writer doesn't appear to be the prime position in making sitcom that it once was. Writers with an original comedy "voice" tend to be overlooked in favour of hack comedy writers or, depressingly yet understandably, become hack comedy writers themselves in order to advance. It is difficult and frustrating when you see so many essentially poorly-written, unfunny shows making it to screen, but the whole culture of comedy commissioning in the UK seems to be rather chaotic and in somewhat poor health at the present time.

John Cleese doesn't get everything he says about the current state of British comedy right (imo), but one thing he's spot-on about is that it's increasingly forgotten that the quality of the script is the most important element to great sitcom. It does appear that "names attached" and the "freshness" of the "idea" have become more important than the quality of the writing. This is why so many shows don't fly. My only plea to commissioners would be to find the strongest scripts and then build the whole show around that script. Not around the specific "sit", a particular actor, a particular demographic etc... Concentrate on finding the greatest scripts, by whatever writer(s) and get people with proven track records to develop and nurture the writing and, hence, the show. This, of course, presumes that it's easy to spot great comedy writing on the page. It isn't. Which is why, after the quality of the writing, the second most important element in great comedy is the quality of the reader. I was lucky enough to once get a script of mine noticed by someone who really knows how to read a comedy script - I won't name her, but her record in producing/commissioning is incredible - and it was such a pleasure to be able to sit in a meeting for the best part of 2 hours as she went through this pilot script line by line, giving a great critique. Someone who really knows how to read a comedy script is vital to the whole process. I'm certain they're around, but perhaps there's not enough of them at the moment?

Maybe things will improve, maybe not. Meanwhile, us unknowns keep on writing, learning, submitting and crossing our fingers...

This is one of the best posts I've ever read on this site.

Quote: Tony Cowards @ January 26 2012, 8:19 AM GMT

This is one of the best posts I've ever read on this site.

Indeed; it should be nailed to the door of Broadcasting House.

Quote: Tim Walker @ January 26 2012, 12:44 AM GMT

John Cleese doesn't get everything he says about the current state of British comedy right (imo), but one thing he's spot-on about is that it's increasingly forgotten that the quality of the script is the most important element to great sitcom. It does appear that "names attached" and the "freshness" of the "idea" have become more important than the quality of the writing.

His point is well made, and he presumably has seen the problem at close quarters. His career as a writer has always operated at a high level (we'll probably never know how much of Fawlty Towers was his, but Fish Called Wanda would be a calling card as an excellent writer on its own) but other of the ex-Pythons were able to get some pretty appalling stuff onto screen on the strength of their collective reputation. That recent drama about "Life of Brian" had a running gag about Fawlty Towers being funnier than Ripping Yarns, and I think most would agree with that judgement; sadly, one might conclude that given Ripping Yarns got commissioned and renewed, Fawlty Towers probably wasn't subjected to huge critical insights before being green-lit as well.

The "freshness" thing is also a real problem. Fawlty Towers (I'm using that as a touchstone for "stuff which is pretty unarguably good", although I'm sure it has some detractors who can make their case) was hardly the first service-sector sitcom, not was it the last, and even if you argue the core of the show is Basil's marriage, or his horrific management style, or whatever, these are not new tropes. The same goes for Rising Damp: there's nothing in there that hadn't been done before, but RD just did it a lot better. But the quality of the writing and performance makes those shows funny; by contrast, a "fresh" situation like that Channel 4 thing about ambulance staff failed because the writing just wasn't good enough and the whole thing was so busy going "look, we're new, we're fresh" that they neglected to put the funny in.

Quote: Tokyo Nambu @ January 26 2012, 7:30 AM GMT

One of the great victories of alternative comedy was to render lazy, offensive comedians with a good line in coon and cripple jokes obsolete. And now we have rape jokes held up as the sine qua non of funny. Rape jokes told by men, of course. Frankie Boyle is held to be a genius because he's never met a disabled child he couldn't mock, and Ricky Gervais gets recommissioned even though he too thinks that bullying people with disabilities is hilarious. And now apparently rape is the new funny. It's a funny old world, isn't it?

Hi Tokyo Nambu,

I was actually making two separate points and I feel you may have the two twisted. I was never claiming that offensive comedy and good comedy is the same thing. In Renegade Carpark's original post he was expressing concerns about the state of British Comedy claiming that...
1) "I think it's time we all came to admit, that British television comedy isn't funny anymore."
2) "Nothing is cutting edge or outrageous or subversive anymore. "
The fact that you say that "apparently rape is the new funny" and that you are offended by such material proves my point. Looking back at its history British comedy has never been as outrageous as it is now. I wasn't claiming it was a good thing.

Quote: Tokyo Nambu @ January 25 2012, 11:04 PM GMT

In Nathan Barley, neither was true, and therefore if you didn't move in the world it portrayed --- and of course, ironically, those that did move in such circles complained its targets were out of date --- it may as well have been set in ancient Assyria for all the resonance it had.

I didn't move in that world, I still found plenty to enjoy, that's all I'm trying to say.

Quote: Matthew Stott @ January 25 2012, 6:48 PM GMT

Sky are making a ton of comedy at the moment, This Is Jinsy, Trollied, SPY amongst them. Obviously none of them may be to your taste, but they are making a lot of new stuff suddenly, they've invested a lot in comedy and it appears to be paying off generally, ratings-wise. Which is good news.

It seems there's more to Sky's output than I'd bargained for. I've heard good things about Jinsy, and if nothing else, it doesn't sound like the sort of mainstream, homogenised comedy that RC is railing against.

Quote: Tony Cowards @ January 26 2012, 8:19 AM GMT

This is one of the best posts I've ever read on this site.

Yes, good post TW, I recognised a lot of what you said from personal experience over the last couple of years.

Quote: Tokyo Nambu @ January 26 2012, 9:13 AM GMT

That recent drama about "Life of Brian" had a running gag about Fawlty Towers being funnier than Ripping Yarns, and I think most would agree with that judgement; sadly, one might conclude that given Ripping Yarns got commissioned and renewed, Fawlty Towers probably wasn't subjected to huge critical insights before being green-lit as well.

I f**king LOVED Ripping Yarns. Rewatched it recently - absolutely brilliant!

In fact I do not recall any "pretty appalling stuff' from the Pythons making it onto the telly (their film careers are another matter). Rutland Weekend was patchy, but certainly no more so Python, and it gave us the fabulous Rutles. The BBC failed to pick up on Out of Trees, which I remember as being okay, and which with Douglas Adams as co-writer had potential. What other TV projects were there?

Quote: Elliott Gill @ January 26 2012, 9:17 AM GMT

Looking back at its history British comedy has never been as outrageous as it is now. I wasn't claiming it was a good thing.

Ah, I see my mis-understanding. Thanks for setting me right: it looks like we're roughly on the same page.

Proposition for debate: great comedy prospers precisely when there are societal boundaries to kick against, and it is in subverting, evading and guying those societal boundaries that great writers make their mark. Remove those boundaries, and there is much less for writers to work against.

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ January 25 2012, 8:10 PM GMT

And again, my points have been misunderstood. It's not about swearing or being racist or whatever - it's about exciting, challenging work, that is thought provoking, subversive and funny.

Can we please stop talking about rape and good old fashioned comedy? Or On The Buses which had both?

I appreciate that there is a large proportion of the viewing audience who would like to sit down of an evening and watch a decent comedy with their families. After watching all the rape, incest, violence, etc. broadcast at 7.30pm on Eastenders, they need a little break before watching another reality show featuring Gypsies punching each other. Good for them, I hope they get a well written, well acted and funny show they can all enjoy.

Personally, I just want a television comedy that I can look forward too, that hasn't been tampered with by a million dull executives afraid of offending sponsors, Ofcom, the audience, my intelligence, etc.

But based on the number of idiots out there, hovering by their phones and keyboards, actively waiting to be offended by a guest on The One Show and then complaining about it en masse, I will never get to see the comedy I deserve.