Quote: Aaron @ July 1 2013, 3:47 PM BSTI seem to recall this wasn't a straight script competition so much as a talent-development initiative, in which the script was written with the BBC as part of the 'College', based on an original idea by the writer.
Meh. It was still competition based. And they went for bland but safe John Major rather than wild but brilliant Michael Hesseltine. Possibly. Who knows.
I would like to think I'm Boris Johnson in this predicament...
Er, maybe not. Lord Sutch?
Quote: MCharsley @ July 1 2013, 3:49 PM BSTI think the demonisation of comedy execs has gone far enough.
I think it hasn't gone far enough. We haven't reached the Hitler comparisons yet.
Quote: MCharsley @ July 1 2013, 3:49 PM BSTI think the demonisation of comedy execs has gone far enough.
Now then. Now then. The expression comedy execs should explain enough to you as it is. 
Quote: Frantically @ July 1 2013, 3:53 PM BSTI can understand the frustration at seeing your script change from something you love and care about into something you don't recognise, but if it was me I hope I'd just treat it as a lesson learned and - above all - a TV credit.
It's about art and careers not about getting your name on something that isn't yours.
Quote: Lee Henman @ July 1 2013, 4:06 PM BSTI might be wrong but I don't think the BBC was contractually obliged to film a pilot. If they didn't believe in the script it would have just been shelved.
The BBC is not the BBC anymore. It is something else.
Quote: Marc P @ July 1 2013, 7:44 PM BSTIt's about art and careers not about getting your name on something that isn't yours.
Sure, a collaborative art. John presumably still has his original script. The finished product was never entirely his. As for the career bit...well the article may be a good thing or a bad thing.
Quote: Marc P @ July 1 2013, 7:44 PM BSTThe BBC is not the BBC anymore. It is something else.
Should we abandon technology and flee to the hills?
If you want to. And sitcom is not really a collaborative art. Like any good drama it has an original artist and other people realise that vision ...actors and directors and make up and costumiers. As I see it... but I am a writer not a man/woman on a short term contract looking constantly to see if someone is going to stick a knife in my back.
Wonder what Tony Hancock would make of the idea he was just realising Galton and Simpson's vision.
I'm not saying John Warburton doesn't have a right to be upset about the way his script was changed to become the sitcom it became, but a lot of people were involved in that pilot and did what they thought would be best for the show, not necessarily the script. What they did may have been wrong but I very much doubt they were out to stick a knife in anyone's back.
Another thing is: Graham Linehan (whom I greatly admire) made a name for himself long before the era of executives. So of course his experience dealing with them at this point would be completely different from a rookie writer who's trying to push his first sitcom.
I'm also not subscribing to the black-and-white view of the subject, but there's got to be something going on here.
Quote: Frantically @ July 1 2013, 9:39 PM BSTWonder what Tony Hancock would make of the idea he was just realising Galton and Simpson's vision.
I'm not saying John Warburton doesn't have a right to be upset about the way his script was changed to become the sitcom it became, but a lot of people were involved in that pilot and did what they thought would be best for the show, not necessarily the script. What they did may have been wrong but I very much doubt they were out to stick a knife in anyone's back.
Tony Hancock's fall out with G and S is pretty well documented so no need to wonder - and you don't grasp what I meant about knife sticking. People don't do what they think is best for the vision... they do what they think is best for them keeping their time limited job nowadays.
Quote: Agnostik @ July 1 2013, 10:39 PM BSTAnother thing is: Graham Linehan (whom I greatly admire) made a name for himself long before the era of executives. So of course his experience dealing with them at this point would be completely different from a rookie writer who's trying to push his first sitcom.
I'm also not subscribing to the black-and-white view of the subject, but there's got to be something going on here.
Didn't the Irish Pipe Smoker be a bit of an executive himself recently and hire some writers which he subsequently didn't use for a series that didn't happen. Which is fine I guess. And wasn't a talented, witty man from here one of them? And no I don't mean me or David Bussell!
Quote: Marc P @ July 1 2013, 11:04 PM BSTTony Hancock's fall out with G and S is pretty well documented so no need to wonder - and you don't grasp what I meant about knife sticking. People don't do what they think is best for the vision... they do what they think is best for them keeping their time limited job nowadays.
Hancock was never simply the realisation of their vision. That's my point - it was a collaboration.
Maybe not everyone does what's best for the "vision" but then again maybe they think the "vision" won't work and needs changing. As I said this might be right or wrong and the motives may well be self-preservation, but knife-sticking suggests a purposely malicious intent which I don't see. If I've failed to grasp what you meant by that again please clarify - has anyone had a knife stuck in their back in this particular situation and by whom?
Marc is saying that the people behind the scenes are risk-averse because they are on short term contracts (etc). They try to avoid being attacked by seeking consensus. There is no malicious intent, but bags of self-preservation.
Quote: Frantically @ July 1 2013, 11:38 PM BSTHancock was never simply the realisation of their vision. That's my point - it was a collaboration.
It's not a point it's a word. Read up about Hancock and the writers. They were the original artists was my point. And the whole drift of this is that the original artists - creators - are getting marginalised. It's a collaboration if it is a 'collaboration' .. I don't mean to be patronising but again look at the meaning and the spirit of the word. As to the second point.. Aaron has articulated it perfectly!
Quote: Agnostik @ July 1 2013, 10:39 PM BSTAnother thing is: Graham Linehan (whom I greatly admire) made a name for himself long before the era of executives. So of course his experience dealing with them at this point would be completely different from a rookie writer who's trying to push his first sitcom.
I'm also not subscribing to the black-and-white view of the subject, but there's got to be something going on here.
Yeah essentially what I was thinking too tbh. Not fair to compare the treatment Linehan and Bain, who've already found their ground in the TV scene with how a newcomer is treated.
And I'm not taking a black-and-white approach either. Probably his script was unfunny or whatever - but if the incidents he quoted actually happened (I'd assume it has since I did not see anyone denying that for starters), it's no excuse for having such awful execs.
Quote: Marc P @ July 1 2013, 11:56 PM BSTAs to the second point.. Aaron has articulated it perfectly!
Yes, that helped clear up my misunderstanding - cheers for that Aaron.
I was going to respond to your other point - but with lines like "...It's not a point it's a word..." and "...It's a collaboration if it is a 'collaboration' ... " maybe it's best I wait for the Aaron version.
Hell, it may turn out I agree with you
Quote: Marc P @ July 1 2013, 9:01 PM BSTIf you want to. And sitcom is not really a collaborative art. Like any good drama it has an original artist and other people realise that vision ...actors and directors and make up and costumiers. As I see it... but I am a writer not a man/woman on a short term contract looking constantly to see if someone is going to stick a knife in my back.
I agree with your broad thrusting, Marc (although I've yet to be convinced that Warburton is some great comedy writer and his vision was anything to get excited about). But what's your solution? Make producers like university professors and give them tenure?
