Quote: DaButt @ July 17 2012, 6:00 PM BST

All of those have happened with the government running and/or overseeing the operations.

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The planes falling from the skies and the nuclear meltdowns in the UK and USA are almost infinitesimal in terms of both occurance and scale. Imagine what it would have been like with private companies in charge with no consequences from the government if they messed up. (much like Amtrak)

The banking crisis crystalises what happens when there is nothing but free market rule with little to no government interference.

Large corporations cannot be trusted to run services that directly put the public in danger. They care only about profits and not people. Your private health insurance is a prime example of how the system works.

But surely the main difference is that private contractors are after a profit and therefore will cut corners to ensure they make a profit.

Quote: Barcy Dussell @ July 17 2012, 6:09 PM BST

But surely the main difference is that private contractors are after a profit and therefore will cut corners to ensure they make a profit.

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But surely that merely means that they would be more than willing to go to whatever ruthless lengths they want to get their money.

Whereas the government is meant to have a duty to the people, big businesses merely have a duty to their shareholders. And there willing to dump as much industrial waste into the sea as much as they like, or kill as many Columbian union leaders as they want to keep their shares going up.

So if you want corporate fascism on a large scale then yes let them do it by all means.

It's a bit from column A, a bit from column B; there are conscientious, dedicated public servants, and there are time serving wasters; privatisation has undoubtedly given some services a much needed kick up the butt, but it has also lead to complete farce.

What should happen is that managers in the public sector who understand what reforms are needed should be given the tools to get on with the job; instead the Government pays a fortune on management consultants and parachutes in bullshitters from the private sector who collect their knighthood and piss off. Then they says the public sector cannot solve its own problems.

What really pisses me off is the mantra "private service good, public service bad", and government rigging the sums to ensure the private sector get the contracts, in order to cash in on public assets and keep public borrowing off the balance sheet.

That and that when it all goes tits up the Government always ends up picking up the tab.

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ July 17 2012, 6:06 PM BST

The planes falling from the skies and the nuclear meltdowns in the UK and USA are almost infinitesimal in terms of both occurance and scale. Imagine what it would have been like with private companies in charge with no consequences from the government if they messed up. (much like Amtrak)

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Except that private companies already are running our nuke plants and building/flying/maintaining our passenger aircraft and there already are regulations in place to ensure safety and reliability.[/quote]

Large corporations cannot be trusted to run services that directly put the public in danger.

I completely disagree and you only have to look around to see it in action.

For every greedy corporation there is a greedy politician eager to assist them in exchange for money.

Quote: Barcy Dussell @ July 17 2012, 6:09 PM BST

But surely the main difference is that private contractors are after a profit and therefore will cut corners to ensure they make a profit.

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Our governments have been spending more money than they've been bringing in, hence the need for cost-cutting measures of their own, such as outsourcing.

I disagree with your disagreement DaButt, from Haliburton to BP to Exxon to Dow Chemicals to just about every single large corporation in existence. They've all routinely broken the law, put people in danger and have got away with it because of their deep pockets, tricky lawyers and bought and paid for political cronies - many of whom serve on the board.

To champion lawless corporations is a bit like saying terminal cancer is good for freeing up hospital beds.

How many more scandals, environmental disasters, criminal activities and human deaths is it going to take before you break your quasi-religious belief in big corporations?

US troops died rescuing the adrenaline jockey burnout cases Blackwater hired

Theres definitely a place for private contractors. But not handing them the Tube network or military bases.

Quote: sootyj @ July 17 2012, 10:41 PM BST

US troops died rescuing the adrenaline jockey burnout cases Blackwater hired

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Blackwater is a tricky one for the US Government, because despite all the scandals and innocent people they murdered, they were also used to carry out a number of deniable operations on behalf of the US Military in Pakistan.

The Attorney General even stepped in to stop any Blackwater personnel from being extradited to face charges in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc.

The company known as Blackwater hasn't escaped continued press criticism and civilian investigations and have had to change their name three times to disassociate themselves with the PR disaster.

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ July 17 2012, 10:36 PM BST

They've all routinely broken the law, put people in danger and have got away with it because of their deep pockets, tricky lawyers and bought and paid for political cronies - many of whom serve on the board.

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Yep, and it's the government's duty to ensure that nobody is above the law. Instead, we have corrupt politicians aiding and abetting such activities in exchange for money and political power. You can't fault a company for trying to make money -- we're all trying to do the same thing. But you can fault a politician for selling out his constituents in order to make himself wealthy.

How many more scandals, environmental disasters, criminal activities and human deaths is it going to take before you break your quasi-religious belief in big corporations?

The government makes megacorporations look puny in comparison in all of the above areas. I have no quasi-religious belief in big corporations, but I also have no such belief in big government and the crooked politicians who run it.

Quote: DaButt @ July 17 2012, 11:22 PM BST

You can't fault a company for trying to make money -- we're all trying to do the same thing. But you can fault a politician for selling out his constituents in order to make himself wealthy.

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If everyone is screwing someone to make money why would you expect your politicians to be different?

I have no quasi-religious belief in big corporations, but I also have no such belief in big government and the crooked politicians who run it.

Who is the bigger crook the corporation who offers the bribe or the politician who accepts it?

It seems to me it is not big government you object to but its corruption by big corporations.

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ July 17 2012, 10:36 PM BST

I disagree with your disagreement DaButt, from Haliburton to BP to Exxon to Dow Chemicals to just about every single large corporation in existence. They've all routinely broken the law, put people in danger and have got away with it because of their deep pockets, tricky lawyers and bought and paid for political cronies - many of whom serve on the board.

To champion lawless corporations is a bit like saying terminal cancer is good for freeing up hospital beds.

How many more scandals, environmental disasters, criminal activities and human deaths is it going to take before you break your quasi-religious belief in big corporations?

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Hear him! Hear him !

"cue rapturous applause"

Quote: Tursiops @ July 17 2012, 11:39 PM BST

If everyone is screwing someone to make money why would you expect your politicians to be different?

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I assume when you say 'screwing someone' you mean breaking the law. Laws are there to protect us and our government officials are tasked with ensuring that they are enforced. They are also in the unique position of being able to create laws, often without any direct input from the populace. The people expect the laws to protect and strengthen the nation, not pad the bank accounts of corporations and politicians.

Who is the bigger crook the corporation who offers the bribe or the politician who accepts it?

They should both share a jail cell, but the elected official is a bigger scumbag because he swore an oath to his constituents.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-18868764

Just thought I'd share this little bit of, quite seismic, news with you.

Not a lot going on in the West Midlands today . . . ..

"Lack of exercise kills roughly as many as smoking, study says"

"People across the world are falling so far short on exercise that the problem has become a global pandemic, causing nearly a tenth of deaths worldwide and killing roughly as many people as smoking, researchers warned this week as an alarming series of studies was published in the Lancet."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/health/sns-la-lanews-lack-of-exercise-kills-roughl-20120717,0,5043971.story

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ July 17 2012, 10:46 PM BST

Blackwater is a tricky one for the US Government, because despite all the scandals and innocent people they murdered, they were also used to carry out a number of deniable operations on behalf of the US Military in Pakistan.

The Attorney General even stepped in to stop any Blackwater personnel from being extradited to face charges in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc.

The company known as Blackwater hasn't escaped continued press criticism and civilian investigations and have had to change their name three times to disassociate themselves with the PR disaster.

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Yes that was the guy in Islamabad who was going to get mugged. I think he shot 2 or 3 of his attackers and killed them. Before being picked up a heavily armed Blackwater unit.

The president of Pakistan demanded he was handed over. And was politely told to go f**k himself.

The victims families got a million dollars a piece compensation. Leading to I think 2 of them being murdered by their own families.

Lovely country Pakistan must go there on holiday, I understand the nan breads are sublime.

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ July 17 2012, 10:36 PM BST

I disagree with your disagreement DaButt, from Haliburton to BP to Exxon to Dow Chemicals to just about every single large corporation in existence. They've all routinely broken the law, put people in danger and have got away with it because of their deep pockets, tricky lawyers and bought and paid for political cronies - many of whom serve on the board.

To champion lawless corporations is a bit like saying terminal cancer is good for freeing up hospital beds.

How many more scandals, environmental disasters, criminal activities and human deaths is it going to take before you break your quasi-religious belief in big corporations?

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I know I say this a lot. But working in social care in the UK I think we have the right model. Almost all work is carried out by charities, 3rd sector companies or business's. But the purse strings are held by the government who dole out projects very much at a local level (run this hospital, these homes etc) No one company is too big to fail and infact f**kups tend to fold quite quickly, and there are actually very few f**k ups.

The budget for social care is pretty big maybe 30 billion. But by controlling at the local level it's pretty safe.