Quote: Aaron @ February 4, 2008, 11:34 PMI propose you finish this dispute once and for all, in a manner that only men can: wrestling naked on a bed of whipped cream and jelly for zooo and Ellie's amusement.
I concur.
James?
FLAT - My latest attempt at a TV sitcom. Page 13
Quote: Barbs @ February 4, 2008, 11:45 PMWas it bitchy? Maybe.
Ah, not you; thems two. Apologies for any confusion. 
Quote: zooo @ February 5, 2008, 12:13 AMI concur.
James?
Only if Ellie and Zooooooooooooooooo
join in.
They've seen my arse. I'm irrisistable. I'm thinking of calling that YouTube vid "James and the Giant Peach".
I honestly have no wish to fight.
Surely something about the chocolate factory would be more fitting?
No, just sick. 
Quote: Jim's WAY too wordy), TBH these "jokes" are exactly the sort of nonsense I am trying to avoid.
That's not rude? Putting jokes in inverted commas isn't a fairly low thing to do? Saying his rewrite is nonsense is ok? No one is saying you have to agree with any crit, but to be so critical of the crit will simply mean people are unwilling to comment next time. Oh - getting posters' names right might also help ;-)
I've posted a couple of ideas and not necessarily agreed with all the comments. However I have been grateful for them.
Anyway, I can't be arsed adding more fuel to the fire - so to try to get this back on topic.
What are my views of your comedy?
None of it made me LOL - but then as you've said it's a more gentle form of humour anyway. Also, would scripts from great shows make people roll with laughter? Would League of Gentlemen look amazing on paper - perhaps not, you really have to build a mental picture of the characters and settings.
What I would say is that some of the writing could be tighter. Maybe you have allowed it to wander a bit in places simply because you know it's not a gag fest and so there is no urgency for the dialogue to head anywhere fast.
Also, you say that it builds to big laughs. That's great, but to get it past a commissioner it will have to include some more easily accessible humour because they are unlikely to allow it the time it needs to build to crescendo. To get something commissioned it needs to make an instant impact - once the production company has committed money you can then start tweaking the format a bit.
That joke hit a bum note with me I'm afraid. *Shudders at own naffness*
Blackadder "I thought it would be up your alley" jokes spring to mind too.
And Barbs, you clearly *couldn't* resist adding fuel to the fire. Reading the first couple of scenes and inserting a hasty crit to cover your tracks after you've initially come on and attacked me does not impress either.
*Sighs*
I said the "jokes" were the sort of nonsense I was trying to avoid. Not the whole crit itself, and not the man. It's not *that* fine a distinction to understand. And I meant "nonsense" as in this definition: "Foolishness; silly behaviour." (Chambers) NOT as in "words or ideas that do not make sense." (Chambers) as you seem to imagine, bafflingly. People seem to want to be chagrined so they have an excuse to "have a go" at what is clearly a free-for-all-anything-goes Jimmy baiting session.
Naff gags have their own merits and can work in a script but this type of re-write completely fails to understand the concept of my script.
I put "jokes" in inverted commas because "more jokes" is a common conceit that keeps cropping up, and by this people mean gags. There are a lot of jokes in the script as it is but they are not "gags" so I made the distinction by using quote marks. I can see that this might look a bit low. But frankly, even seen in that way I don't see that it as out of keeping with the tone set by everyone else. Nor should it inspire anyone to have a go at me or call me a **** with delusions of adequacy.
"This is an outrage" *Shakes tentacle*
I can't speak for Ellie, but I can provide my own whipped cream.
Quote: zooo @ February 5, 2008, 12:25 AMI can't speak for Ellie, but I can provide my own whipped cream.
You had the op then?
Blimey O'Reilly people! This seems to me just a tad over the top. Here’s my two penn’orth for what it’s worth (that’ll be 2p then)
I think that having requested crits on his / her work the writer must not, no matter how hard it becomes and no matter under what provocation, rise to any bait dangled in his / her general direction.
This is of course easier said than done. Our work is, to us, generally quite precious and to have it decried hurts. I have myself suffered criticism that I don't agree with in the past and in all but one occasion I have taken it on the chin. On the one occasion that I did bite back I regretted having done so as all it did was annoy me and prolong the agony.
I feel that once things reach this sort of level it is more magnanimous if the author silently bites his / her tongue and gets his / her “told you so” in when the work receives its commission from some kind of interested third party.
Most of us who write know how good we are and if we could only make those other buggers see that then we'd be made in the shade.
My advice to you James, offered purely as an observer from the sidelines, would be to refrain from any further comment in this thread and let it fade away. You can still work at your idea and I think that you should.
I just truly believe that trying to carry on a creative process in this climate will not enable you to give of your best and thus hamper your work's further development.
B
This thread has thoroughly descended into madness now.
I am still thankful I posted the script for all the useful comments, but rather wish I had not tried to enter into a discussion about why some critiquers hold some of the opinions they do. It's like questioning The Word Of God or something.
I don't think my disagreeing with some or my seeking more detail from others is best described as "biting back" or "throwing my toys out of the pram" though.
I didn't realise I had to post and then keep it zipped - but you're right Blenkinsop, this is clearly the only way one can behave.
Thing is James, you're arguing with people's opinions which are subjective. You can't say that they are wrong. But they are pefectly entitled to tell you, that in their opinion, something is funny or isn't funny. Its how it works.
Quote: zooo @ February 5, 2008, 12:25 AMI can't speak for Ellie, but I can provide my own whipped cream.
Ellie can bring the custard.
Insert "trifling matter" joke a la The Office.
Quote: ajp29 @ February 5, 2008, 12:57 AMThing is James, you're arguing with people's opinions which are subjective. You can't say that they are wrong. But they are pefectly entitled to tell you, that in their opinion, something is funny or isn't funny. Its how it works.
Often I want to know more behind why people say things like "the characters don't work". For me it's not sufficient to not even provide one example or illustration of what they mean. And certainly it seems off to me to get huffy when I ask for more reasoning or try and enter into a discussion on it.
"The jokes don't work, the characters are rubbish and it bored me, think on that and don't ask me anything else." I mean, that's hardly fair.
With some other stuff, the critique has been misguided in that it has attempted to turn the sitcom into something it's not; if I applied these recommendations across the whole script it would be a different genre. It might be really, really good, or at least a bit better than my apparently misfiring script as it is now, but it wouldn't be what I'm trying to achieve. "When The Whistle Blows" springs to mind.
I was just trying to illustrate to people what I was getting at. The script clearly doesn't tell people what I'm trying to get at, but if I tell them, they may be able to help me make the script what I'm trying to get at. Does anyone understand this? With some of the crit it was almost like I was getting advice on how to write an action film when I want to write a romance. Not all sitcoms are the same. (And I do believe mine is funny, by the way, before anyone says "you're trying to write something that isn't funny" or anything of that ilk.)
1) The BSG forum is remarkable in that debate is almost completely free of trolls and bruised egos. Please help keep it that way by remembering that feedback / comments are meant to develop ideas and writers; not to cripple people with cruel barbs. When you post material for critique, you will then appreciate the free and frank (but considerate) opinions. Remember comedy is subjective and not everyone will give glowing praise. In fact, negative points are the ones to be thankful for as they allow us to re-examine our work and help us develop.
Quote: zooo @ February 5, 2008, 12:25 AMI can't speak for Ellie, but I can provide my own whipped cream.
CHRIST!
Quote: ajp29 @ February 5, 2008, 12:33 AMYou had the op then?
No, but she does work in a bakery. All that jam, cream... 
In fact, one could say that she's a Master Baker!
Quote: James Williams @ February 5, 2008, 1:09 AM(And I do believe mine is funny, by the way, before anyone says "you're trying to write something that isn't funny" or anything of that ilk.)
a) Isn't that a given?
b) It's worked for modern comics.