Quote: MTpromises @ March 10 2011, 7:23 PM GMT

This isn't the first time I've seen High Society listed as a great sitcom but I have zero recollection of the show.

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"High Society" was a sitcom about a wealthy and flamboyant New York divorcee, Dorothy Emerson (Mary McDonnell) who runs a successful publishing company and her outrageous, boozy, man-eating best friend, Ellie Walker (Jean Smart) who is a successful trashy romance novelist. Other characters include Dorothy's sensible, studious and conservative son, her disapproving, old money Mother and an old college chum of the girls called Val, who is much more homely and does not fit well with their sophisticated lifestyle.
The show's humour was brittle and very caustic, and unusually unsentimental for American sitcoms of the era. In spite of award nominations and very good ratings, network executives asked the writers to tone it down if they were to give it another series. The writers refused and the show was largely forgotten after one excellent season - not even getting a DVD release.
This is very unfortunate, as the show was ahead of its time. It clearly broke ground for the much more diluted and obvious "Will and Grace" and was much maturer than sentimental and cheesy "Friends" and "Mad About You".

Quote: ToddB @ March 12 2011, 1:43 PM GMT

"High Society" was a sitcom about a wealthy and flamboyant New York divorcee, Dorothy Emerson (Mary McDonnell) who runs a successful publishing company and her outrageous, boozy, man-eating best friend, Ellie Walker (Jean Smart) who is a successful trashy romance novelist. Other characters include Dorothy's sensible, studious and conservative son, her disapproving, old money Mother and an old college chum of the girls called Val, who is much more homely and does not fit well with their sophisticated lifestyle.

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Well, no prizes for guessing why you like it!

Quote: Aaron @ March 12 2011, 1:52 PM GMT

Well, no prizes for guessing why you like it!

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Indeed!

Quote: ToddB @ March 12 2011, 1:43 PM GMT

The show's humour was brittle and very caustic

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I'm not sure I agree that brittle and caustic humour makes for a particularly good sitcom. Overdo it and you just get a show populated with characters you neither care for or like. And who wants to spend any time watching them?

Quote: ToddB @ March 12 2011, 1:43 PM GMT

sentimental and cheesy "Friends"

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Friends is one of the best sitcoms of all time, and it certainly doesn't strike me as cheesy. It's also stood the test of time and is as fresh and sparky now as when it was first broadcast.

Growing up in the 90s I liked alot of sitcoms from both the UK and US. I used to like Channel 4 on a Friday until around 1999 when they started showing crap.

Top UK

Goodnight Sweetheart
Birds of a Feather (started in 1989 but I care not)
Absolutely Fabulous
2point4 Children
Drop The Dead Donkey
Murder Most Horrid
As Time Goes By
The Upper Hand
Next of Kin
One Foot In The Grave
Keeping Up Appearances
On The Up
The Brittas Empire
Oh! Doctor Beeching
Men Behaving Badly
The Vicar of Dibley
dinnerladies
Gimme Gimme Gimme

US

Roseanne (again not caring that it arrived in '88)
Frasier
Ellen
Cybill
Caroline In The City
Spin City (Series 1)
Friends
3rd Rock From The Sun
Mork & Mindy (When Channel 4 repeated it during the summers of 1995 and 1996)

Sorry, I didn't like any? Mustn't think it is a golden age...

Quote: chipolata @ March 12 2011, 5:41 PM GMT

I'm not sure I agree that brittle and caustic humour makes for a particularly good sitcom. Overdo it and you just get a show populated with characters you neither care for or like. And who wants to spend any time watching them?

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I rather like these sitcoms, and I find that when flawed people are explored in a very frank way, we can laugh at ourselves honestly. Most of my favourite sitcoms feature characters that are quite horrid in one way or another. We can't totally dislike many of them, however, as we can see elements of ourselves. Most of them can be identified with. There are times when most of us are self-involved and lack self-control or the courage of our convictions.

Quote: chipolata @ March 12 2011, 5:41 PM GMT

Friends is one of the best sitcoms of all time, and it certainly doesn't strike me as cheesy. It's also stood the test of time and is as fresh and sparky now as when it was first broadcast.

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I think I liked it when I was very young. It was popular because it was relatively accessible, safe and innocuous, but I don't think it was a greatly sophisticated piece of sitcom writing. Phoebe and Chandler could be good for a laugh with the occasional bit from Joey - but overall I found it drippingly sentimental. I groaned a lot at the obvious jokes. It never grew up enough to become mature or subtle and was never brave enough to go the distance with any lower humour - very middle-of-the-road. The characters could be extremely annoying, with overwritten emotions, and were treated so sentimentally that it got nauseating. It would be better off to explore ordinary flawed thirty-somethings and find the humour in them getting on with life, rather than emoting and saying things with silly inflections followed by canned laughter. "Coupling" (UK) did what "Friends" attempted with funnier results, although I am not married to that either.
Anyway, "Friends" is obviously to the taste of many people... but not mine.

Forget your Seinfelds, Rosannes, Frasiers etc...
The only American sitcom worth mentioning is 'The Larry Sanders Show'.

There would be no 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' or 'The Office' without it.
Shout! Factory has all 89 episodes in a lovely box for your library.

Quote: ToddB @ March 13 2011, 8:11 AM GMT

I think I liked it when I was very young. It was popular because it was relatively accessible, safe and innocuous, but I don't think it was a greatly sophisticated piece of sitcom writing. Phoebe and Chandler could be good for a laugh with the occasional bit from Joey - but overall I found it drippingly sentimental. I groaned a lot at the obvious jokes. It never grew up enough to become mature or subtle and was never brave enough to go the distance with any lower humour - very middle-of-the-road. The characters could be extremely annoying, with overwritten emotions, and were treated so sentimentally that it got nauseating. It would be better off to explore ordinary flawed thirty-somethings and find the humour in them getting on with life, rather than emoting and saying things with silly inflections followed by canned laughter.

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Couldn't agree with you more. Whenever Friends came on I would play the graaand piaano, then have Barry Humphries over for scones and we'd watch videos of Full House and The Bold and the Beautiful.

Quote: bcbud @ March 13 2011, 9:49 AM GMT

Forget your Seinfelds, Rosannes, Frasiers etc...
The only American sitcom worth mentioning is 'The Larry Sanders Show'.

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No, there are many, many American sitcoms worth mentioning. But yes, Larry Sanders is a classic and very influential.

Quote: chipolata @ March 12 2011, 5:41 PM GMT

Friends is one of the best sitcoms of all time, and it certainly doesn't strike me as cheesy.

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Doesn't seem cheesy to me, either.

Surprised Waiting For God and Nightingales havent beem mentioned yet

Quote: ToddB @ March 13 2011, 8:11 AM GMT

I rather like these sitcoms, and I find that when flawed people are explored in a very frank way, we can laugh at ourselves honestly. Most of my favourite sitcoms feature characters that are quite horrid in one way or another. We can't totally dislike many of them, however, as we can see elements of ourselves. Most of them can be identified with. There are times when most of us are self-involved and lack self-control or the courage of our convictions.

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Good sitcoms explore fully rounded three-dimensional characters. The reason one of your favourite shows - Vivienne Vyle - failed was because the central character was a thoroughly unlikeable, one-dimensional and paper-thin. The writers were so obsessed with telling us how manipulative and bad these confontational chatshows were (well, duh!) that they forgot you also need characters you care about. If you want to see deeply flawed characters who also manage to be likeable watch Larry Sanders, The Office or Arrested Development.

Quote: ToddB @ March 13 2011, 8:11 AM GMT

I think I liked it when I was very young. It was popular because it was relatively accessible, safe and innocuous, but I don't think it was a greatly sophisticated piece of sitcom writing.

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Don't make the mistake of thinking that because something appeals to a broad range of people that it is somehow easy to write or lacking in sophistication.

Quote: ToddB @ March 13 2011, 8:11 AM GMT

followed by canned laughter.

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It wasn't canned.

Quote: zooo @ March 13 2011, 12:36 PM GMT

It wasn't canned.

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Ah - I stand corrected. Obviously very devoted fans ready for a good night in the studio.

Quote: chipolata @ March 13 2011, 12:12 PM GMT

Good sitcoms explore fully rounded three-dimensional characters. The reason one of your favourite shows - Vivienne Vyle - failed was because the central character was a thoroughly unlikeable, one-dimensional and paper-thin. The writers were so obsessed with telling us how manipulative and bad these confontational chatshows were (well, duh!) that they forgot you also need characters you care about. If you want to see deeply flawed characters who also manage to be likeable watch Larry Sanders, The Office or Arrested Development.

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I certainly agree that characters need depth. I think a lot of flawed, unsympathetic characters managed to be likeable because they are well written. I obviously saw more depth in "Viv" than others - admittedly it came out in very restrained spurts. I haven't seen "Larry Sanders" but love "The Office" and "Arrested Development"

Quote: chipolata @ March 13 2011, 12:12 PM GMT

Don't make the mistake of thinking that because something appeals to a broad range of people that it is somehow easy to write or lacking in sophistication.

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I don't think that things that have a broad appeal are necessarily less sophisticated - consider "Frasier" - very popular but also very clever and snappily witty. I'm sure that the writers of "Friends" had their own difficulties, maintaining that popularity means treading a fine line and having such a popular formula is like catching lightning in a bottle - but you must admit that the humour isn't particularly mature and it isn't as clever as "Frasier" or "Arrested Development".

Quote: ToddB @ March 13 2011, 12:38 PM GMT

the humour isn't particularly mature

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I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. The humour in Friends certainly isn't immature, in that it doesn't revolve around bodily functions or slapstick.