Quote: Horseradish @ 2nd November 2013, 4:37 PM GMT

But:

- We had the Great Depression so the German experience wasn't unique
- Unemployment has rocketed here although Brown kept inflation down
- Unemployment can often be linked to mechanisation/new technology
- It is also linked to absence of war/the lack of need for armaments

In Germany currently, footballers are paid much less than in Britain. The price of tickets is also much lower. The standard is not lower. The "industry" has no present reason to be different there. There is the same potential for television rights and income from spectators. And there is no identifiable link between, say, inflation in the 1920s and decisions made there.

But as the chairman of Bayern Munich said, the culture is just different. They don't see supporters as cash cows. Rather, they are purchasing a service. Consequently membership is higher than in other countries and it's a glorious "private sector" success. I imagine they don't believe that trickle down economics is anything more than a magic trick. A con in other words.

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You're trying to make links where there are none, and ignoring others.

British football is mainly so awash with cash because of the clubs' success at internationalising their fan-base, marketing, and the obscene amounts of money that pour in from global broadcast rights. You note the potential for such income in Germany, but it's no secret that British leagues are the most popular in the world.

But that's picking into one industry niche for an example of one point or other. Far more relevant and interesting is the economy as a whole, and the attitudes it engenders. Which in turn does affect individual industries, as your quote about culture alludes to.

We suffered from the depression, but have never been asked to pay £500 million for a loaf of bread.

The price is relevant to the wage and does not relate to the actions incurred under, hyper inflation.
Bread maybe £5 million but you could be on £79 million on a flat week.
The potential of legal access to foodstuff is the true marker.

Quote: Aaron @ 2nd November 2013, 5:18 PM GMT

You're trying to make links where there are none, and ignoring others..........We suffered from the depression, but have never been asked to pay £500 million for a loaf of bread.

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That last sentence is overly emotive. If I have no money and the cost of a loaf is a penny, I starve. Also, if I have thruppence but have good reason to believe that in a month's time I will have nothing, that's a big problem for me too. Here's the truth of it. Tens of thousands were in workhouses. The instinct in mansion owners was to control the emaciated by giving them a lettuce leaf and eking out every last drop of blood. There is a bit of basic psychology here. If it wasn't their fault - and they had had free will - was it logical to expect them to (1) think "we must regulate our behaviour" or (2) become unstable and go on the rampage?

It is extraordinary that many did have the dignity to try to march in sensible protest. But - and here comes the first of two interesting twists - that required religion. Marshall Riley's Army - The Jarrow Marchers - were unusually devout and that made their behaviour different. You wouldn't get it now, particularly under a modern capitalist system. The second twist is its legacy which is not easily predicted. What it led on to was the National Campaign For Civil Liberties, latterly Liberty. So there you have a direct link between the ideas of freedom and rights on the one hand and the dignity of acceptable living conditions on the other. That is diametrically opposed to modern distortions of liberty - that "do anything you want" free market economics.

I've never been a bible reader or a church goer. I don't do religion as it is too political but have my own individualistic spiritual faith. It wouldn't be regarded by most religionists as substantial. But what I note is that a kind of religion runs through many mass movements where rights and self-regulation are noticeable. The trade unions, football etc. At root, they are religions of a kind and in these respects Germany now is as Britain used to be. Here the news agenda is set by right wing capitalists whose religion is money. A part of it is depicting unions as the devil for not worshipping it in the ways expected. Well, they wouldn't. Being somewhat down to earth where it matters purely in respect of survival, it is to be expected that they will wrestle in the gutter for just a bit of it. It's about time they did it meaningfully on the hour every hour.

An eloquently delivered statement of fact.

Quote: Teddy Paddalack @ 2nd November 2013, 5:55 PM GMT

An eloquently delivered statement of fact.

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Thanks.

I vote Horseradish.

The last 10 minutes or so of today's Daily Politics was a discussion about voter apathy, if anyone is so interested.

Voter apathy upsets me.

I blame Big Brother et al, people think I vote and someone gets kicked out of the house. Well that's democracy, I vote in an election and nothing seems to change.

I mean if you remember Shilpagate, I think people genuinely thought they were fighting racism by voting on a TV show.

No you're not.

People tend to get the governments that they deserve.

Quote: sootyj @ 5th November 2013, 3:31 PM GMT

People tend to get the governments that they deserve.

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Actually, that's not really true is it

I think it is.

So there.

Democracy in action

Russell being interviewed by Jeremy Paxman:
When did they start swearing on the news??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGxFJ5nL9gg

Quote: Marc P @ 5th November 2013, 3:40 PM GMT

Actually, that's not really true is it

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Sort of is, in a way. Lefties in particular, which I count myself as, tend to moan that politics is 'populist', then say they're going to spoil their vote because they're not being represented by government. The whole point of the 'populist' argument is 'they're just saying that to get more votes' - well, yeah, and if you bothered to vote they'd be more likely to say things you like too!

I think Russell Brand is just a very naughty boy, despite his Messiah complex:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Msg5DeddusU

Quote: sglen @ 5th November 2013, 6:02 PM GMT

Sort of is, in a way. Lefties in particular, which I count myself as, tend to moan that politics is 'populist', then say they're going to spoil their vote because they're not being represented by government. The whole point of the 'populist' argument is 'they're just saying that to get more votes' - well, yeah, and if you bothered to vote they'd be more likely to say things you like too!

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So true

I spoiled my ballot, voted for the one man independent party, voted for Al Quaeda, stood outside telling others not to vote, soiled my ballot, oiled my ballot, broiled my ballot

Anything but vote for someone who might get in, like all those boring, squares who voted for the incumbent who got in.

I've got my principles and an eviction letter for my council house.