The Definition of Well Written Page 11

Quote: Matthew Stott @ December 6 2010, 9:15 PM GMT

Well the writer does the writing work, yes; and other people do their jobs. And they're all important in their own way to the final piece.

Matthew why!?! Why do you do this to me? Do you hate me? DId I offend you? :)

A piece is both "written" and "wrought" a writer writes and everyone else who contributes can be said to be a "wright" like a shipwright. i.e. The production designer will contribute to the statement a piece makes, albeit slightly more modestly than the writer.

I thought we agreed on this like three pages ago, no?

Quote: JPM1 @ December 6 2010, 9:05 PM GMT

Ok, back now... sorry.

Yes, I feel your frustration. It does seem like we're going around in circles a bit. It's been difficult getting folks over the "it's subjective" obstacle but I think we're close!

On the subject of producers and the involvement of other non-writers.

I feel strongly that, though they do a different job, they are part of the work of forming the piece and are therefore "wrighters," if not writers.

I am beginning to see why this is a contentious issue on a forum full of writers... ;)

The truth is though, that while a writer does most of the work there are other cooks in the kitchen.

But - we digress! On to the expert construction of a manuscript.... You suggest that if you enjoy reading them and have an emotional reaction you would distinguish them from Amateur. I'd challenge you, in the nicest way possible, to be more specific about what makes it "enjoyable" to read.

What about things like well-woven A,B, and C stories, characters making unexpected choices, or smart use of setting and time.... sure these make it enjoyable but can one script's expertise be greater than another's? How do we measure it?

Could we say that the more threads a show weaves together the better? (I'm sarcastic, of course, but - for a rhetorical reason.)

Yes others help, but they help produce the final broadcast show, which is of course a visual medium. But only the writer 'writes' and only their work(i.e. the script) can be written - well or otherwise. Personally I feel you cannot critic the show and the script with the same criteria.

To answer the question: what makes it "enjoyable" to read? is a very difficult one and frankly I may not be up to the task, you really need to speak to a literally critic I believe. In terms of sitcoms, I enjoy so many - here I'm talking about books of scripts that I've read. I suppose it comes down to these things: A world I can believe in, characters I want to spend time with, surprizing situations/events, and a surprizing use of language (dialogue/jokes etc).
NB:- you're going to ask me why I want to spend time with certain characters and not others and why I believe in some worlds and not others now aren't you! ;-)

How do we measure these things? Why is Basil Fawlty an enduring comic character? What was it about last of the summer wine that helped it endure for so long? If I (or anybody else) knew the answer to these questions we'd all be making our own sitcoms!

Could we say that the more threads a show weaves together the better? :- No, because complication or sophistication(sp?) are not ends in themselves, but means to something else.(in my point of view).

Quote: Griff @ December 6 2010, 7:58 PM GMT

I can't believe Marc P, Lazzard and others are giving this thread the time of day. It must be an economic indicator of hard times in the screenwriting world.

:D

I just love The Trip.

Quote: JPM1 @ December 6 2010, 9:05 PM GMT

Yes, I feel your frustration. It does seem like we're going around in circles a bit. It's been difficult getting folks over the "it's subjective" obstacle but I think we're close!

Yeah some folks are just thick! :P

Quote: Griff @ December 6 2010, 7:58 PM GMTI

can't believe Marc P, Lazzard and others are giving this thread the time of day. It must be an economic indicator of hard times in the screenwriting world.

I know, it's like picking a scab.
You know you shouldn't, but then you catch it on something...

Quote: JPM1 @ December 6 2010, 6:38 PM GMT

Lazzard, I beg you, just consider for a short while that there might possibly be a way of looking at writing that is something other subjective. Please....

OK.

No, I don't believe there is another way.

Quote: Lazzard @ December 6 2010, 11:00 PM GMT

OK.

No, I don't believe there is another way.

I'm totally with you on this.

Blimey! 10 pages of this thread now...?

It goes to prove one thing, most writers (myself included) would rather be tapping away at the keys describing the writing they/others have done/will do, rather than facing the lonely and miserable task of sitting down and writing their next script. Nothing can be judged well-written or otherwise until it actually exists there on the page... ;)

For some reason I have a mental image of JPM1 posting from the Overlook Hotel.

Quote: chipolata @ December 7 2010, 8:33 AM GMT

For some reason I have a mental image of JPM1 posting from the Overlook Hotel.

"All work and no play...."

Quote: Tim Walker @ December 7 2010, 2:33 AM GMT

Blimey! 10 pages of this thread now...?

It goes to prove one thing, most writers (myself included) would rather be tapping away at the keys describing the writing they/others have done/will do, rather than facing the lonely and miserable task of sitting down and writing their next script. Nothing can be judged well-written or otherwise until it actually exists there on the page... ;)

Never a truer word...
What are you working on BTW ( it's sometimes easy to forget this is a Writers Forum)

I am working on an edit of a video 'Christmas Card' for my local pub, I should get a bottle of malt out of it. :)

Quote: Marc P @ December 7 2010, 8:47 AM GMT

I am working on an edit of a video 'Christmas Card' for my local pub, I should get a bottle of malt out of it. :)

after your agents taken a couple of healthy swigs.

I'm doing a very bizarre treatment on a very bizarre story for miniscule money that will probably come to nothing.
Should just about cover the ink, paper and heating required to produce it!

I'm crudely writing bollox on a bus shelter. Should get me a 10 bob fine and a clip around the ear.

Oh and,

"well" (written by hand)

I'm big on recycling so I'm converting an old sitcom script into a new short story.

well, it looks like this thread is coming to it's inevitable demise. I tried to bring a rigourous critical dialogue to the site but I suppose that was a futile endeavour to begin with.

I want to thank those of you who tried to go along with me.

And for those of you who were disdainful and reluctant, yet kept posting, I'll never understand why you felt compelled to contribute to a conversation that you didn't think should happen in the first place.

I'm sure I'll get a load of poo thrown my direction but I want you to rest assured that I won't be reading or replying any longer.

It's my sincere desire that someday we can all meet for a drink and have a real conversation, where people listen and respond appropriately, without being rude or derisive. And where we walk away better writers for having engaged in it.

So long....

Quote: JPM1 @ December 7 2010, 10:27 AM GMT

well, it looks like this thread is coming to it's inevitable demise. I tried to bring a rigourous critical dialogue to the site but I suppose that was a futile endeavour to begin with. I want to thank those of you who tried to go along with me. And for those of you who were disdainful and reluctant, yet kept posting, I'll never understand why you felt compelled to contribute to a conversation that you didn't think should happen in the first place. I'm sure I'll get a load of poo thrown my direction but I want you to rest assured that I won't be reading or replying any longer. It's my sincere desire that someday we can all meet for a drink and have a real conversation, where people listen and respond appropriately, without being rude or derisive. And where we walk away better writers for having engaged in it. So long....

You failed to get the discussion you wanted because you wanted to dictate the terms of that discussion as rigidly as you wanted to define what makes something well-written. A more relaxed and less dogmatic approach would have worked better.

As my old friend Swiss Toni might say, this thread is like making love to a beautiful woman - who's on the pill.

There was never going to be an end product but it was a highly enjoyable experience for the participants and for spectators like myself.

Despite arriving (inevitably) at a stalemate, the thread has demonstrated that both Marc P and JPM1 are splendid writers and splendid thinkers.

Wonderful entertainment.