I read the news today oh boy! Page 2118

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Rood Eye

  • Wednesday 6th November 2019, 2:27pm [Edited]
  • England
  • 3,063 posts

The girl at the centre of the "Prince Andrew photo" scandal is now saying that Andrew should be sent to prison - but she doesn't say what for.

So far, she hasn't even suggested that Andrew has ever broken the law in the UK or the USA or in any other country.

There are plenty of people I'd like to see locked up and never let out again but, because they continue to live their lives within the law, they're allowed to walk free.

It's a bugger, I know - but it's the basis of every decent legal system in the world.

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Rood Eye

  • Wednesday 6th November 2019, 3:35pm [Edited]
  • England
  • 3,063 posts

Health Secretary Matt Hancock says no patient should be allowed to choose the skin colour of the doctor who treats them.

Strangely, he doesn't simultaneously seek to deny patients the right to choose the gender of the doctor who treats them.

I don't understand why that should be.

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Paul Wimsett

  • Wednesday 6th November 2019, 9:08pm
  • Folkestone, United Kingdom
  • 3,237 posts

Because a fear of the opposite sex is a proper medical thing. Fear of someone of a different skin colour is just prejudice.

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Rood Eye

  • Wednesday 6th November 2019, 9:43pm [Edited]
  • England
  • 3,063 posts
Quote: Paul Wimsett @ 6th November 2019, 9:08 PM

Because a fear of the opposite sex is a proper medical thing. Fear of someone of a different skin colour is just prejudice.

Nobody has mentioned fear: it's simply a matter of preference.

Some such requests might be motivated by fear but a great many others will certainly be motivated by other things. It simply comes down to an individual patient's preference which may, or may not, change from time to time depending on a variety of circumstances.

I think it highly likely that most female members of BCG have, upon occasion, requested to see a female GP. I have certainly known several women who liked men very much indeed and yet who, as a matter of routine, always asked to see a female GP.

I also think it likely that several male members of BCG who have absolutely no fear of women have, upon occasion, requested to see a male GP.

I think we might all agree that there is, in the vast majority of circumstances, absolutely no medical or logical reason why a patient need be treated by a doctor of his/her own gender.

And yet GP surgeries across Britain are happy to accommodate patients who express a preference with regard to a doctor's gender.

I simply don't understand why Matt Hammond has expressed no keenness to remove a patient's right to choose a doctor's gender in the same way that he wants to remove the patient's right to choose a doctor's ethnicity.

If we're going to have an inclusive society, it makes little sense to advocate half measures in these respects.

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Definitely Tarby

  • Wednesday 6th November 2019, 11:05pm
  • England
  • 1,857 posts

Maybe including URLs will help in future to read the source material. The ones I've read are Matt Hancock telling NHS staff they should speak up when racially abused and patients should not be permitted to refuse to be seen based on someone's race or religion. He's talking about hospitals with emergency departments full of abusive patients and you're talking about booking a GP appointment which is something completely different. Some people prefer to be seen by male or female GP based on personal, religious or cultural reasons and at a GP surgery they're more likely to be accommodated because there is more time for it to be accommodated and surgeries would prefer to encourage people to visit a doctor but if seriously injured and needing urgent surgery in hospital I doubt they will have a team of surgeons stream in to the room for them to pick to do the procedure while other patients are waiting.

Only someone akin to Daily Male from Viz wouldn't understand the difference.

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Rood Eye

  • Wednesday 6th November 2019, 11:18pm [Edited]
  • England
  • 3,063 posts
Quote: Definitely Tarby @ 6th November 2019, 11:05 PM

Maybe including URLs will help in future to read the source material.

Racism is, of course, to be opposed where ever it is encountered and Matt Hancock's letter to the NHS makes that perfectly clear. Hooray for him, I say!

However, he goes much further:

ITV News says: In a letter written to NHS staff, Mr Hancock said: "If a patient asks to be treated by a white doctor, the answer is 'no'.

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-11-06/if-they-want-a-white-doctor-say-no-hancock-writes-to-staff-after-itv-news-finds-shocking-racism-at-hospitals/

Nursing Notes says: Patients not entitled to demand 'a white member of staff', says Hancock.

https://nursingnotes.co.uk/patients-entitled-demand-a-white-member-staffhancock/

There are several other sources but I think the above two sources are sufficiently unbiased to represent them all.

Racist abuse is morally akin to sexist abuse and we don't want to see either of those awful things in our hospitals, GP surgeries or anywhere else.

However, leaving abuse aside and getting back to simple personal preference, it makes little sense to outlaw ethnic preference without outlawing gender preference when it comes to choosing a medical practitioner.

There is, in the vast majority of cases, simply no logical or medical need for any patient to be treated by a doctor of a particular ethnicity or gender.

If we're going to outlaw one, why on earth would we not outlaw the other at the same time?

Having said that, I feel obliged to declare a personal interest here:

There is an absolutely brilliant doctor at my local practice: he's black and I would be seriously miffed if, in future, I were not allowed to ask for him specifically when booking an appointment.

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Definitely Tarby

  • Wednesday 6th November 2019, 11:55pm
  • England
  • 1,857 posts

It's not just about patients asking to be seen by a white doctor but also increasing numbers of patients refusing to be seen by a white doctor you just elect to emit that. Maybe you should spend the day in your local hospital to see how some people behave. I was in A&E a few months ago and there was a steady stream of drunk and drugged patients there making it miserable for everyone around them and making demands on staff like they were in a hotel. A patient refusing to be treated by someone because they are wearing a turban or a patient refusing to be treated by someone because they are white or Irish or Spanish is completely different to a patient preferring a male or female.

There is a big difference over preference of the patient when in a hospital emergency setting compared to ringing up their local GP surgery to make an appointment because most are a week or two wait. You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel with this one.

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Rood Eye

  • Thursday 7th November 2019, 12:26am [Edited]
  • England
  • 3,063 posts

You make a number of very good points but, in response, I can only refer you to my previous postings.

In the ongoing fight against racism, I applaud Matt Hancock's wish to see all manifestations of it removed from the NHS. If that means denying a patient the right to request or refuse treatment from someone of a particular ethnicity, so be it. As I've said more than once in previous posts, there is in the vast majority of cases absolutely no logical or medical reason to justify such a request. On that basis, good for him!

I have also said previously (and I repeat it now for the benefit of anyone who may have missed it), there is similarly in the vast majority of cases absolutely no logical or medical reason to justify a patient's request to be treated or not treated by a person of a particular gender.

I'm simply wondering why Matt Hancock is not telling NHS staff to deny treatment requests based upon gender preference in the same way as he's telling them to deny treatment request based upon ethnicity preference.

Why on earth is he seeking to make one giant step towards an all-inclusive NHS service when, with just a few words added to his already lengthy letter, he could make two?

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Definitely Tarby

  • Thursday 7th November 2019, 12:38am
  • England
  • 1,857 posts

You're just trolling. Everyone seems to know the difference but you. Life is too short.

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Rood Eye

  • Thursday 7th November 2019, 12:47am
  • England
  • 3,063 posts
Quote: Definitely Tarby @ 7th November 2019, 12:38 AM

You're just trolling. Everyone seems to know the difference but you. Life is too short.

I think you'll find that supporting measures to rid the NHS of racism and sexism is just about as far from trolling as it's possible to get.

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Kenneth

  • Thursday 7th November 2019, 1:11am
  • Australia
  • 5,232 posts
Quote: Rood Eye @ 7th November 2019, 12:47 AM

I think you'll find that supporting measures to rid the NHS of racism and sexism is just about as far from trolling as it's possible to get.

What say you to conservative Muslim men who feel it would be inappropriate for their wives and daughters to be examined by a male doctor?

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Definitely Tarby

  • Thursday 7th November 2019, 1:19am
  • England
  • 1,857 posts
Quote: Rood Eye @ 7th November 2019, 12:47 AM

I think you'll find that supporting measures to rid the NHS of racism and sexism is just about as far from trolling as it's possible to get.

You're a real trailblazer. Good luck!

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Rood Eye

  • Thursday 7th November 2019, 8:33am
  • England
  • 3,063 posts
Quote: Kenneth @ 7th November 2019, 1:11 AM

What say you to conservative Muslim men who feel it would be inappropriate for their wives and daughters to be examined by a male doctor?

I see your point Kenneth and I have considerable sympathy for the feelings of those Muslim men and, indeed, their wives and daughters. It's likely that all of them would feel very uncomfortable if such an examination were the only one the NHS were prepared to offer them.

I suppose Matt Hancock would say to them what he'd say to a patient (or a relative of a patient) who felt that an examination by a doctor of a different race to their own would feel very uncomfortable.

He'd point out that there is no logical or medical reason why the proposed examination should not take place and that the NHS is unwilling to cater to patients' individual prejudices.

.

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Teddy Paddalack

  • Thursday 7th November 2019, 1:44pm
  • Everton, England
  • 3,005 posts

ER rooms in hospitals are microcosms of the area in which they serve. These days they are often the only light on offering help to communities that have been cut to the bone.
This has left the sad the mad and the bad alongside the infirm the vulnerable and the elderly all looking for help. The help by the way comes from low paid over worked medical staff. As such under those conditions anyone trying to stipulate who should do what, should be told to f**k off.
There is a hospital half built in Liverpool city centre. It was meant to be state of the art, sadly the company folded and now it stands neglected.
By the way the same company had even cornered the school meals concessions so when it fell not only did we lose a much needed hospital but kids went without their dinners.
The entire infrastructure of this country is in bits. Outsourcing and privatisation have diluted the very core of our alleged 'Civilised Society' if you ask me the only difference between this country and Nigeria is the weather.

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Rood Eye

  • Thursday 7th November 2019, 3:49pm [Edited]
  • England
  • 3,063 posts

Still with gender (or the absence thereof), some years ago a female lecturer at Goldsmiths University in south-east London announced that she was no longer binary, asked to be addressed by a different name and to be referred to by gender-neutral pronouns.

The University acceded to all her requests and issued bulletins to the students informing them of the situation.

They even appointed her to the role of 'the preferred tutor for transgender and non-binary students'.

The woman in question (for she is indeed a woman) has now announced that it was all a wind-up.

Needless to say, her announcement has sparked outrage among the LGBTQ+ community.

Outside that community, many people are clapping their hands with glee.

Others are not - obviously. Laughing out loud