Quote: Firkin @ 23rd August 2019, 12:29 PM

Now that Boris is working hard on blaming a no deal Brexit on rebel MPs and the EU, is that an example of him shoring up his own beliefs or an admittance he believes it will be too damaging for him to take the blame ?

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The latter.
He has no beliefs, except " I should be Prime Minister".
Wasn't even sure which way to jump on the eve of the referendum - but I guess he gamed the various outcomes (for him, not the country) and took a gamble on 'Leave'.
And he's done very well out of it.

Quote: chipolata @ 23rd August 2019, 9:39 AM

It's just shorthand for a particular way of thinking, in the same way Guardian reader is shorthand for another way of thinking.

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Except that the two most recent comments don't mention "Daily Mail Readers" at all but make allegations such as "straight out of the Daily Mail comments section" and "targeting this group with criticism in the same way as the Daily Mail does", which, at best, are unsubstantiated and therefore, as far as anyone knows, palpably untrue.

Quote: Teddy Paddalack @ 23rd August 2019, 10:18 AM

[quote name="Billy Bunter" post="1208810" date="23rd August 2019, 9:11 AM"]William the only thing that disappoints me is that you don't understand that the 'DAILY' Mail and the Mail on'SUNDAY' are two separate editorial teams and that's why I said Daily Mail and not Sunday Mail.
It's a bit like mistaking the Beano for the Dandy which is easily done if you're in a rush.

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Similarly, you seem to be mistaking the Mail on Sunday for the Sunday Mail. I mentioned the Mail on Sunday because it is the sister paper to, and in the same ownership as, the Daily Mail and therefore has some relevance to its political stance. Whereas the Sunday Mail, to which you refer, is a completely separate entity, available only in Scotland, and owned by Trinity Mirror and therefore very unlikely to have any relevance to the Daily Mail's political stance.

Quote: Teddy Paddalack @ 23rd August 2019, 10:46 AM

The fact that the paper supported Mr Hitler never comes up , which if you ask me is slightly odd given their desire to highlight Anti Semitism when it comes to Corbyn and yet refer to Jewish radical parents when it came to Milliband?

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Of course, the political opinions of certain people 86 years ago has little relevance to the political opinionss of entirely different people today. That's like saying because Everton beat Manchester City 3-0 in the 1933 FA Cup Final, they will beat them 3-0 again this season.

I've no wish to defend the Daily Mail if people wish to take issue with what it actually said, which then allows a counter-argument to be put forward but I get annoyed at the lazy stereotyping based solely on perceived reputation rather than on any substantiated facts, which thus does nothing to advance the debate in question.

The Mail on Sunday has a different stance on Brexit than the Daily Mail despite them being in the same stable. As for using it as a stereotype I don't?
As for its views on Hitler I thought it relevant given the constant referral by of 'Some' Leave voters to the Dunkirk spirit that appears to have filled the vacuum created by the lack of 'Easy Deal's we were getting and the 350 million a week the NHS was getting.?

Quote: Teddy Paddalack @ 23rd August 2019, 10:46 AM

In fairness Beaky I know a few sharp Brexiteers and I can understand their views as Europe is not perfect in many many ways. Sadly Chappers is a product of the sound bite Jingoist side of the caper as such he has a tendency to recite crap verbatim.
The Daily Mail is used to sum up the type of person who was already angry before they got their paper and have no intention of calming down.
The fact that the paper supported Mr Hitler never comes up , which if you ask me is slightly odd given their desire to highlight Anti Semitism when it comes to Corbyn and yet refer to Jewish radical parents when it came to Milliband?

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But you still haven't given any good reason to remain.

Quote: Firkin @ 23rd August 2019, 12:29 PM

Thanks for this John, it's very interesting, it argues using facts, that facts don't win arguments.

Now that Boris is working hard on blaming a no deal Brexit on rebel MPs and the EU, is that an example of him shoring up his own beliefs or an admittance he believes it will be too damaging for him to take the blame ?

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The fact that we're bickering amongst our selves give the EU a reason to not want to do a deal. If we were a united country they would have to agree to us leaving.

Quote: Chappers @ 23rd August 2019, 10:28 PM

The fact that we're bickering amongst our selves give the EU a reason to not want to do a deal. If we were a united country they would have to agree to us leaving.

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Sounds to me like you're advocating a dictatorship where we're all forced to act and think in the same way. Very undemocratic!

Quote: Chappers @ 23rd August 2019, 10:28 PM

But you still haven't given any good reason to remain.

The fact that we're bickering amongst our selves give the EU a reason to not want to do a deal. If we were a united country they would have to agree to us leaving.

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You still havent' given a good reason for us to leave. It's all little Englander 'we hate foreigners' shite. Stop blaming the EU. They weren't the numpties who wanted us to leave. It's the bastarding Tory Party. That's what It's all about. They don't give a damn about the country, only about their party and how much money they can make from this.

And why should we be a 'united country'? I'm sick of hearing about the WW2 spirit. Our parents and grandparents were united against a common enemy in those days. My father didn't risk his life on MTBs to help arses like f**king Boris and Rees-Mogg to make more money for themselves.

Well said.

To lighten the mood though:

SIXTY SEVEN (67) yes...67 (one less than 68)
Not very good is it ?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-...y-two/11444970

Sir Geoffrey must be apoplectic.

That's still seven better than 60.

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 21st August 2019, 10:26 PM

Yes that's easy. It will decrease the flood of unskilled immigration to UK that has flooded the labour market with cheap labour, keeping wage rises lower than inflation and taken great swathes of public and private housing stock to house them, which has led to a housing shortage for Brits, expensive houses for Brits, expensive rents for Brits.

It will help our over used NHS recover from serving so many EU citizens living off us.

It will help ease the damaging rise in crime which came in with the flood of immigrants. An alarming percentage of organised crime is carried out by foreign nationals living here.

It will mean our businesses will be rid of anti competitive trade laws made by the EU. As Lord Attenborough just said, why the hell should we be told how much we can charge for tomatoes?

It will do much to eradicate the black market in labour with damages our economy - workers being paid in cash and not paying any tax or NI.

It will mean we can set our own laws without them being overturned by people we can't even elect.

It will mean political freedom and sovereignty once again, to run our country as the government we elect wish.

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I just thought I'd repeat myself as some keep asking what the benefits are.

I'll add a lot more jobs for Brits. Less EUs coming in means more much more work for us. Remember like it used to be.

Not a probable but a possible - it's been mooted that Job Security could improve because the labour market won't be flooded as it is now. meaning potentially better contracts, less instant sacking knowing you can employ someone else immediately.

In the old days people had good jobs with good contracts and pensions - that was because we had a limited labour market. It all went when cheap labour started flooding in.

Quote: Briosaid @ 23rd August 2019, 11:08 PM

. It's the bastarding Tory Party. .

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No Brio it was the British people, they voted to leave in the referendum and many of them were trad Labour supporters. And the party behind it was really UKIP. When 4 million votes went to UKIP in the general election the writing was on the wall. Cameron took the gamble to shut them up and lost. It pleased half the tory party yes but not all otherwise we'd have left when we should have, in March.

Alfred I agree there are benefits to Brexit as with anything. I totally agree with your earlier point about wanting to reduce long NHS queues. But Brexit will make those queue longer, due to the damage to our economy and lower tax revenues. The evidence of that is our weaker pound and lower credit rating. Boris may have changed his mind on his rivers of gold speech, but Economist, the bank of England and business leaders have kept the same message from beginning to end on this. It's an economy killer.

How will you reduce queue with less money ? Especially when a lower percentage of overseas workers claim benefits (and commit crime), that British born people ? If you know, I could make you rich on consultation fees. How ?

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 24th August 2019, 8:38 AM

I just thought I'd repeat myself as some keep asking what the benefits are.

I'll add a lot more jobs for Brits. Less EUs coming in means more much more work for us. Remember like it used to be.

In the old days .

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The old days are never coming back. If you voted Brexit because you see it as a time machine that will take us back to a perceived golden age then I fear disappointment awaits you. We live in a different world now and need to deal with that world.

Quote: Firkin @ 24th August 2019, 9:18 AM

It's an economy killer.

How will you reduce queue with less money ?

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With less people using our NHS. People flock here to exploit it, the figures are there. The people who run the NHS are naturally liberal, soft and helpful, so few of them like to talk about these figures. Some of those who have done have lost their jobs. And yes, the pressure this has put on staff has led to catastrophes which have damaged the NHS's reputation.

I don't see it as an economy killer but an economy leveller. The more we try to be in top 5 world economies the more it's destroyed our quality of life and put wages down for the masses and made people homeless. The only ones who benefit from booms are bankers, lawyers and businessmen, very little gets through to most of us. A smaller scale economy would mean we less expansion of infrastructure needed. Our quality of life was better before Blair opened the floodgates to Europe - when the other countries didn't. If he hadn't have done that there'd have been no Brexit.

Trouble is Alfred EU workers do not include many retired people, or children, or those too ill to work. I.e. the heaviest users of the NHS. So the demand won't change much but the funding will, as the EU lot mostly pay taxes. I hope I'm wrong and you're right.

Maternity is one of the most stretched departments. 65% and increasing of births are now to people born overseas. There is a crisis in maternity funding, recruitment etc. It can't cope. To cope it's taken money from other budgets, said to be from social care in some areas, when social care itself is in crisis and can't cope. No other EU country has had to cope with such a burden since 2004 when free movement began to UK but nowhere else.

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 21st August 2019, 10:26 PM

Yes that's easy. It will decrease the flood of unskilled immigration to UK that has flooded the labour market with cheap labour, keeping wage rises lower than inflation and taken great swathes of public and private housing stock to house them, which has led to a housing shortage for Brits, expensive houses for Brits, expensive rents for Brits.

It will help our over used NHS recover from serving so many EU citizens living off us.

It will help ease the damaging rise in crime which came in with the flood of immigrants. An alarming percentage of organised crime is carried out by foreign nationals living here.

It will mean our businesses will be rid of anti competitive trade laws made by the EU. As Lord Attenborough just said, why the hell should we be told how much we can charge for tomatoes?

It will do much to eradicate the black market in labour with damages our economy - workers being paid in cash and not paying any tax or NI.

It will mean we can set our own laws without them being overturned by people we can't even elect.

It will mean political freedom and sovereignty once again, to run our country as the government we elect wish.

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1. Flood of unskilled Immigrants
The flood (what a horrible word, and tells us all we need to know, really) of immigrants isn't coming from the EU - that figure is falling dramatically. So Brexit Britain will look very similar to today - with maybe a few more brown, colonial faces to fill the jobs in the NHS and public services that will no longer be filled by EU members. When it comes to HOUSING, 74% of recent migrants live in private rented accommodation - thus are not a strain on the public housing sector, or on house prices. They also tend to live in 'denser' groups ie crowded - so take up less room than us Brits. Of course, the above figures are for all immigrants - and as has been previously stated the proportion of these that are EU immigrants is rapidly dwindling. So no Brexit Bonus there. Quite the opposite. Brits distaste for manual labour and learning how to build means that it will be harder to raise the stock of housing once the hard-working, mobile EU workforce is banished.

2. EU citizens strain on NHS
Won't change much as most of the 3 million who live here will take up residency - and of course pay tax, just like the rest of us. More so in fact. As a side not, on average EU citizens in the UK contribute more than they take out. So you must mean people from EU who come for a short stay - and thats about £340m a year (Dept. Health figures) which is .003% of the total NHS budget. That figure of course is for ALL immigrants, not just EU (see point above).

3. Crime and Immigrants
Despite the fact that, contrary to tabloid rantings, crime rates have fallen whilst immigration rates have risen - there are reasons for concern here. Figures show that with young men in particular when it comes to THEFT Eastern Europeans have been convicted of a disproportionate amount of offences - but were LESS likely to take drugs or commit violent crime. That honour goes to British and Irish born people ( FT reporting MAC report)

4. Anti Competitive Trade Laws
We're part of the EU - we made those laws. And they're there to stop price fixing, cartels and other underhanded behaviours. And what the the 'factory bosses' call 'red-tape' - you or I might call health & safety initiatives, workers rights and environmental guidelines. I'm sure chimney sweeps suffered terribly when they weren't allowed to stick boys up chimneys anymore. But they'll got over it. This really is bendy banana stuff.

5. Black Market
The black market in labour is a disgrace, we should be ashamed that we don't crack down on it. It's also worth mentioning that it exclusively involves iILLEGAL immigrants (EU and non-EU). Whether this will improve after Brexit is questionable.

6. Make our own laws
One of the biggest hoaxes of them all, right up there with the £350 million and "The Turks are coming!!".
We can & we do make our own laws. Huge swathes of UK domestic law our created and governed by UK parliament - which is sovereign. And whenever we've questioned EU law in the past we've won - eg keeping the pound, control of borders, staying out of Schengen, not having to to fund Euro-zone bailouts - plus a hard fought agreement that "references to ever closer union do not apply to the UK".

Your last point is just a bit of bluster, and I think I've dealt with it above.
Brexit will not solve this countries problems which are mainly self-inflicted.
It will, however, neatly distract from the government's ongoing project of grinding the rest of us down and dragging us back to their version of the 'good old days' when we all knew our place and did what were told.

Pip-pip,