Quote: Hercules Grytpype Thynne @ 25th November 2017, 3:20 PM

Contradiction there methinks.

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Not in the slightest.

My neighbors just bought a vacation house on a lake, and it came with a huge gun safe in a hidden room. An empty gun safe is a sad sight, so yesterday his wife asked me if I'd help her buy him a nice AR-15 as a Christmas present. Her husband keeps a close eye on his bank account, so to maintain surprise we'll have to go all gangsta and pay cash for it, since there aren't many things sold for a thousand bucks at sporting goods stores, other than firearms.

I just remembered that Smith & Wesson makes rifles under the M&P brand name, so I guess the previous poster can still get one if he manages to make the football team.

Quote: DaButt @ 25th November 2017, 2:18 PM

Also, since you would appear to be a high school student, you are likely under the age of 18 and legally forbidden to own a handgun.

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How about Vermont, where kids can buy and possess handguns at age 16? Seems a shame that little kids elsewhere are being denied their right to fun. How many people died in mass shootings in America so far this year? Not enough to stop your fun?

Quote: DaButt @ 25th November 2017, 4:29 PM

An empty gun safe is a sad sight

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So sad that people are gun nuts. You'll never solve your gun problem until you stop loving the bloody things.

Quote: Kenneth @ 25th November 2017, 4:53 PM

How about Vermont, where kids can buy and possess handguns at age 16?

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Absolutely untrue. Federal law prohibits the sale of handguns to anyone under the age of 21. And for what it's worth, Vermont's murder rate is 1/3 that of the nation as a whole, averaging about 10 murders per year. Only Hawaii and New Hampshire have lower murder rates.

Quote: Kenneth @ 25th November 2017, 4:53 PM

How many people died in mass shootings in America so far this year? Not enough to stop your fun?

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It only takes a couple of brain cells to understand that my safe, legal and fun sport shooting and hunting are completely unrelated to mass murder.

Quote: Kenneth @ 25th November 2017, 4:53 PM

You'll never solve your gun problem until you stop loving the bloody things.

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I don't love any of my firearms, but I do love living in a country where my constitutional right to bear arms for self-defense hasn't been stripped away by politicians who enjoy 24/7 armed protection for themselves and their families.

The British should have never left you to your own devices.

No country wants to be overtaxed by a foreign power.

Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 25th November 2017, 5:41 PM

The British should have never left you to your own devices.

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You didn't. We killed you by the thousands. With guns. And then we amended our constitution to ensure that Americans would never be disarmed against any threat - be it internal or external.

Whereas British men have remained less insecure about the size of their penises and don't need the compensation.

Quote: DaButt @ 25th November 2017, 5:30 PM

Absolutely untrue. Federal law prohibits the sale of handguns to anyone under the age of 21.

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So the following Vermont statutes are meaningless?
§ 4007. Furnishing firearms to children
A person, firm or corporation, other than a parent or guardian, who sells or furnishes to a minor under the age of 16 years a firearm or other dangerous weapon or ammunition for firearms shall be fined not more than $50.00 nor less than $10.00. This section shall not apply to an instructor or teacher who furnishes firearms to pupils for instruction and drill.
§ 4008. Possession of firearms by children
A child under the age of 16 years shall not, without the consent of his or her parents or guardian, have in his or her possession or control a pistol or revolver constructed or designed for the use of gunpowder or other explosive substance with leaden ball or shot. A child who violates a provision of this section shall be deemed a delinquent child under the provisions of chapter 52 of Title 33. http://legislature.vermont.gov/statutes/fullchapter/13/085

Only 420 gun deaths in Vermont over 2011-2016.

Quote: DaButt @ 25th November 2017, 5:30 PM

It only takes a couple of brain cells to understand that my safe, legal and fun sport shooting and hunting are completely unrelated to mass murder.

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Apparently it takes more than two brain cells to understand that when you let a country's people think guns are fun sport, then that country is going to have a huge problem with gun deaths.

Quote: DaButt @ 25th November 2017, 5:30 PM

I don't love any of my firearms, but I do love living in a country where my constitutional right to bear arms for self-defense hasn't been stripped away by politicians who enjoy 24/7 armed protection for themselves and their families.

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You love the right to bear arms? See, you don't understand that gun nuts are the problem. Imagine, no guns. You'll say it's too hard. You'll claim it will cause a civil war. You're not gonna solve your country's gun problem when you can't even see that guns are a problem.

Say California did become its own country. Would it want to want the right to bear arms to remain, or would it want a clean sheet?

Quote: Kenneth @ 26th November 2017, 9:36 AM

So the following Vermont statutes are meaningless?

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Yes. Vermont's firearm laws are intentionally vague, but they do not trump the federal law which prohibits dealers from selling handguns to anyone under the age of 21. Vermont is a bit of an oddity: strongly left-leaning (Bernie Sanders is their senator) yet vehemently pro- individual rights and anti- big government. It all goes back to their roots as one of the original 13 colonies who revolted against tyrannical British rule.

Quote: Kenneth @ 26th November 2017, 9:36 AM

Only 420 gun deaths in Vermont over 2011-2016.

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And 90% of them were suicides. The number of firearm murders during that 6-year period was 42, or an average of 7 per year. Despite having the most lenient gun laws in the nation, their murder rate is just about the lowest in the nation at 1.6 per 100,000 residents. Now look at the city of Chicago, which boasts some of the nation's most restrictive gun laws, yet has a murder rate of 27.2, or a full 17 times that of Vermont. Why the difference between the two? You only have to look as far as the numbers of gang members, drug dealers and street criminals in the two locations to find the answer.

Quote: Kenneth @ 26th November 2017, 9:36 AM

You love the right to bear arms? See, you don't understand that gun nuts are the problem.

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No, guns and so-called 'gun nuts' (I prefer to call them 'law-abiding gun owners') are not the problem. Gang members, drug dealers and users, street criminals and homicidal maniacs are the problem. Period.

Quote: Kenneth @ 26th November 2017, 9:36 AM

Imagine, no guns. You'll say it's too hard. You'll claim it will cause a civil war.

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Because it's true. Describe a workable plan where the nation's criminals are disarmed along with the nation's law-abiding gun owners. Be sure to explain how a million or more criminals who carry and use firearms despite mandatory sentences running from 5 to 30 years in prison (and sometimes the death penalty) will suddenly see the light of the new law and turn in their illegal firearms. Bonus points if it's constitutional, and I'll affix a big gold star to it if you can cite an example of a nation with our number of guns and levels of gun crime (and gangs, drug dealers, street criminals, etc.) which has been successfully disarmed and pacified.

The likelihood of a civil war caused by the government forcibly removing firearms from law-abiding gun owners is very real. The last time it was tried we were a colony without a constitution, but as the British began confiscating gunpowder and weapons, tens of thousands of armed Americans fought back. There is no reason to believe that Americans would react differently today.

Quote: Paul Wimsett @ 26th November 2017, 11:15 AM

Say California did become its own country. Would it want to want the right to bear arms to remain, or would it want a clean sheet?

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I assume they'd want to maintain their right to bear arms.

California would be more likely to split into two states than it would be to leave the USA. There's a big divide between coastal areas and the interior of the state. The Bay Area is strongly liberal, but I have quite a few friends there who are very liberal, but strongly pro- gun rights.

I accept the retail gun sale laws are pretty tight there except for that ridiculously legal device which makes a semi automatic weapon into a military style machine gun, which resulted in the preventable loss of many lives in the Vegas concert massacre. I also fully accept that sporting gun use by responsible individuals has no bearing at all on gun crime and wish it would not be continually treated as such in these threads by those determined to make out a fondness for recreational firearm use makes you a psycho ready to go postal.

This is the utterest rubbish imaginable, I can only assume for the US gun sports industry as well, as any involvement in gun sports in Britain is handled with the most respectful safety etiquette to everyone around you, you only walk with uncocked shotguns bent over your shoulder etc. Not many know or believe this but even military guardsmen here on public duties don't have loaded guns until put on high alert or presented with a situation that requires them to load it. All club and country estate gun use is treated with the most respectful pomp and ceremony and fiddliness you'd expect to have come down from the British upper classes.

But what are the US laws on private second hand gun sales? That is where there's a potentially huge flaw for nutters and criminals to exploit. Your purchasing of the rifle as a gift for a friend to keep the element of surprise could be translated into a catastrophic scenario where a friend buys a gun as a gift for a friend he hasn't seen too much of lately and doesn't know his wife's run off with the milkman and his consequent depression's meant he's lost his job down at the nursery school. Are there legal measures to stop this happening? Because from the outside it doesn't look like there's a proper solution in place for that not uncommon to America scenario.

I only came on here to comment on Davina MaCall's bottom. But's always guns guns guns on here these days.

Quote: DaButt @ 26th November 2017, 1:39 PM

No, guns and so-called 'gun nuts' (I prefer to call them 'law-abiding gun owners') are not the problem. Gang members, drug dealers and users, street criminals and homicidal maniacs are the problem. Period.

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Do you think they might be less inclined to go about shooting others if guns were harder to come by? Do you not think your gun culture is to blame?

Quote: DaButt @ 26th November 2017, 1:39 PM

Describe a workable plan where the nation's criminals are disarmed along with the nation's law-abiding gun owners. Be sure to explain how a million or more criminals who carry and use firearms despite mandatory sentences running from 5 to 30 years in prison (and sometimes the death penalty) will suddenly see the light of the new law and turn in their illegal firearms. Bonus points if it's constitutional, and I'll affix a big gold star to it if you can cite an example of a nation with our number of guns and levels of gun crime (and gangs, drug dealers, street criminals, etc.) which has been successfully disarmed and pacified.

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1. Initiate a mental revolution to stop the glorification of guns. This may take some time, so don't delay. Make guns socially unacceptable, especially among urban dwellers. Strive for a smarter, nicer, safer society, less likely to produce homicidal loons.
2. Amend your constitution. There, now it's constitutional.
3. Ban handguns and semi-automatic rifles for civilians, conduct buy-backs.
4, Use your 1 million police to disarm your 1 million bad guys.
5. No more private arsenals.
6. No other nation comes close to your country's per capita level of gun ownership. You'll have to use some initiative if you don't want to continue reaping the corpses of gun culture. Otherwise you can look forward to more mass shootings and come here proclaiming that guns are fun.

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 26th November 2017, 3:04 PM

I only came on here to comment on Davina MaCall's bottom.

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A jewel at the end of a lengthy diatribe - so what abart it?

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 26th November 2017, 3:04 PM

I accept the retail gun sale laws are pretty tight there except for that ridiculously legal device which makes a semi automatic weapon into a military style machine gun, which resulted in the preventable loss of many lives in the Vegas concert massacre.

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It's difficult to put aside the human tragedy and discuss it clinically, but the shooter would have killed more people with well-aimed individual shots from a bolt action hunting rifle with a good scope than he did by randomly spraying hundreds of unaimed shots. Fully automatic fire from rifles tends to be inaccurate and wasteful, which is why rifles carried by American soldiers are typically only capable of single shots or 3-round-bursts. The Vegas shooter killed 58 people out of 22,000, while the Texas shooter hit nearly every person in the church with well-aimed single shots. And then there's the guy in Nice who killed 50% more people with a truck than did the Vegas shooter.

The bump stocks that the Vegas shooter used are novelty items that no reasonable shooter has a use for, so I expect them to be banned shortly. That said, all you have to do is hold any semi-auto rifle in the right way and you'll be able to get it to behave like a rifle with a bump stock. (All you're doing is pulling the rifle forward so that the recoil causes the trigger to be pulled many times in succession.)

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 26th November 2017, 3:04 PM

I also fully accept that sporting gun use by responsible individuals has no bearing at all on gun crime and wish it would not be continually treated as such in these threads by those determined to make out a fondness for recreational firearm use makes you a psycho ready to go postal.

This is the utterest rubbish imaginable, I can only assume for the US gun sports industry as well, as any involvement in gun sports in Britain is handled with the most respectful safety etiquette to everyone around you

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You are correct and it's refreshing to hear from someone who can wrap their head around the complexities of the issue, rather than just throwing around insults and misinformation.

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 26th November 2017, 3:04 PM

But what are the US laws on private second hand gun sales? That is where there's a potentially huge flaw for nutters and criminals to exploit. Your purchasing of the rifle as a gift for a friend to keep the element of surprise could be translated into a catastrophic scenario

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I'm not purchasing the rifle for my friend. His wife will make the purchase and will have to undergo the standard FBI background check and she will technically be the owner of the firearm.

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 26th November 2017, 3:04 PM

Are there legal measures to stop this happening? Because from the outside it doesn't look like there's a proper solution in place for that not uncommon to America scenario.

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Private sales and transfers are a touchy matter and it often comes down to common sense. If I sell someone a car I don't ask for his driver license and insurance paperwork, but if he's wearing an ISIS t-shirt and muttering about using the car to run over infidels, then I'll probably call off the sale. The same thing goes for gun sales: nobody in their right mind would sell to a guy with gang tattoos on his face.

There are a lot of existing laws and regulations out there and many involve FFLs (Federal Firearms Licenses: people/companies licensed to manufacture, sell or transfer guns). An individual can sell a firearm to another individual without an FFL, but if you're in the habit of doing so frequently, you'll need an FFL. I would be open to making use of an FFL mandatory, as long as transfer between family members would be exempt and the fee and processing time were reasonable (no more than $50 for the entire transaction and a limit of an hour or so for processing.)

Quote: Kenneth @ 26th November 2017, 3:08 PM

Do you think they might be less inclined to go about shooting others if guns were harder to come by? Do you not think your gun culture is to blame?

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No and no.

Quote: Kenneth @ 26th November 2017, 3:08 PM

1. Initiate a mental revolution to stop the glorification of guns.

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I think the glorification of which you speak exists mainly in the imaginations of people who hate guns and/or can't understand any of the valid reasons people have for owning firearms.

Quote: Kenneth @ 26th November 2017, 3:08 PM

2. Amend your constitution. There, now it's constitutional.

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Here's how it would need to be done. I don't think you'll ever have enough Americans willing to go that far, because they understand guns and realize just how how valuable the Second Amendment is.

Quote: Kenneth @ 26th November 2017, 3:08 PM

3. Ban handguns and semi-automatic rifles for civilians, conduct buy-backs.

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This is where the civil war comes in: when armed government agents kick in doors to forcibly disarm American citizens. It would not go smoothly and compliance would likely be less than the 20%-40% compliance rate of your own nation's confiscation program.

Quote: Kenneth @ 26th November 2017, 3:08 PM

4, Use your 1 million police to disarm your 1 million bad guys.

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Despite countless laws and extremely severe penalties, they have utterly failed to do so up until now, so how will that be rectified? (It won't.)

Quote: Kenneth @ 26th November 2017, 3:08 PM

5. No more private arsenals.

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What exactly constitutes an arsenal? How many guns are in an arsenal?

Quote: Kenneth @ 26th November 2017, 3:08 PM

6. No other nation comes close to your country's per capita level of gun ownership.

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Yet we only rank 94th in the world in murders per capita. It's almost as if firearm laws and ownership are not directly related to murder rates. Huh.