True Actually one thing I would say about the old version, it's more hilarious.

IMO, of course.

Let bygones be zygons

Quote: Raymond Terrific @ April 6 2013, 10:27 AM BST

See, what you've done there is to make objective statements about the new design (heavy muscles etc) but decide this makes it inferior. It's this last bit where you transition from fact to opinion. There's no reason other people, even the majority of people, can't prefer the new version. And if they do, what exactly makes your preference objectively better than anyone else's?

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Come now, Godot is right. Always right. In all ways. And if you continue to disagree so. He may eat your soul. I know. I used to have a soul. Once.

Oh.

Godot, the old Zygons are way better.

Quote: Raymond Terrific @ April 6 2013, 10:27 AM BST

See, what you've done there is to make objective statements about the new design (heavy muscles etc) but decide this makes it inferior. It's this last bit where you transition from fact to opinion. There's no reason other people, even the majority of people, can't prefer the new version. And if they do, what exactly makes your preference objectively better than anyone else's?

View original

You appear to believe the design exists in a vacuum. It's the product of a brief. I've tried very hard to help you out here but this debate is going over your head. If someone prefers the second version that's up to them. The majority of people probably would prefer the new version, if for no other reason than they recognise much of the design as similar to design they've seen in other recent films and shows. It has a modern look. But tasked with with designing a sea creature (for example) you would be expected make certain design choices. You wouldn't for instance give the creature fur and the build of a monkey. If you did it would be bad design and that wouldn't be a subjective judgement.

The Zygon costume brief was probably fairly simple: firstly and most importantly recreate costumes that no-longer exist, secondly imitate as closely as possible the original design in anniversary year. Now drawing out what is successful in a design is not that easy, as I tried to express in the previous post.

John Friedlander and James Acheson were really exceptional designers. The show over the years has had the very best people working on it. Friedlander in particular was a genius and his masks are one of the reasons Who is what it is today. He designed Davros, the Sontarans, the Kraals, the Draconians and of course the Zygons. He made highly creative design choices. Instead of going for obvious design tropes he made the Zygons delicate and strange looking. They are short, and not physically threatening at all.

The modern version is something of a rubber thug. The emphasis has been on obvious villainy. That's fine, but in the same way it's possible to objectively judge writing according to established criteria it possible to criticise the design by questioning the quality of the design choices and whether it meets the needs of a brief.

The reason you don't see this is because you don't know how design choices are made or evaluated.

Quote: Matthew Stott @ April 6 2013, 12:53 PM BST

Come now, Godot is right. Always right. In all ways. And if you continue to disagree so. He may eat your soul. I know. I used to have a soul. Once.

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It the absence of a personality you should really worry about. The most exciting thing about your posts is your avatar.

Quote: Godot Taxis @ April 6 2013, 4:20 PM BST

The majority of people probably would prefer the new version

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Well, to me, that really seems to be the most important goal for the design team. You obviously value other criteria more though. But your argument has already dropped to "you'll never understand, you're not a designer", so, whatever.

Quote: Godot Taxis @ April 6 2013, 4:20 PM BST

It the absence of a personality you should really worry about. The most exciting thing about your posts is your avatar.

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Classic Godot, respect Guv.

I'll have to catch up with tonight's episode on iPlayer tomorrow. Disgusted with myself. Just... disgusted.

Quote: Ben @ April 5 2013, 11:46 PM BST

I wouldn't say Tennant was a brooder.

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He spent the whole of series 3 moping because Rose was gone. then there are the moments when he puts on a batman voice and says things like "its the burden of the time lord"

Also I am so glad we have got rid of all that "he is like ice and fire" rubbish.

All these alien extras look like something Lucasfilm would have done nearly 40 years ago for Mos Eisley.

Well that was pretty atrocious. I don't see what the viewer was supposed to care about? Some blonde little crybaby singing? Really? People care about that? Where was the background to the story? Where as the jeopardy? It all seemed so lightweight and relied on the Doctor giving a long speech to the 'god'. Just... uggghhhh...

I liked the singing and the moped thing reminded me of Flash Gordon and some of the ALien designs were quite creative if simple.

Otherwise load of bollocks.

And way, way, way, way too much sonic screwdriver.

FFS he might as well have a phaser.

A little girl who knew ALL the stories and songs of the culture & yet apparently did not know that the Queen of the Year would be sacrificed to the bad God.

Huh?

I mean it was an amiable way to spend about an hour.

Don't try and understand it, Bill. You'll only get a headache.

And who was the other chorister? Had he been there for the last 1000 years or WOT?! These Moffat bits with absolutely no explanation do my head in.

And yes, SootyJ, screw the sonic screwdriver. The sooner a Terileptil gets a hold of it, the better.

The Doctor had his brain/soul drained & yet it had no effect on him?