Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 6th June 2014, 10:52 PM BSTTry and do this in the UK - http://time.com/63528/the-armed-rebellion-on-a-nevada-cattle-ranch-could-be-just-the-start/
Well Occupy St Pauls, or that farm one with the gypsies.
I doubt the government backed down over some endangered turtles a million dollar fine, police do it the whole world over.
I think they kinda got that the ranchers weren't going to shoot, so it rolled out like most of these confrontations do in the rich west.
Not much.
Quote: sootyj @ 6th June 2014, 11:00 PM BSTWell Occupy St Pauls, or that farm one with the gypsies.
Or Waco.
Horses for courses.
Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 6th June 2014, 11:00 PM BSTThose weren't the 'early days' of the uprisings, the rebellion in Libya had been going on for a year before NATO stepped in. I vividly remember news footage of people in pick up trucks with rifles being shot at by attack helicopters.
If you were to create a dictators handbook, the first two chapters would be control the press and disarm the populace - can you imagine something like happening here? Oh wait...
You vividly remember inaccurately.
As for disarming the populace, if you think you're living in a dictatorship I doubt I'd be able to disuade of such a notion.
Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 6th June 2014, 11:02 PM BSTOr Waco.
Horses for courses.
Well exactly. WACO all the violence was instigated by the government on the basis of the weapons they believe the Branch Davidians had, never mind they didn't use most of them.
Too the extent they ended up using the army.
Such actions in the UK, would be unconceivable as the government/police could never justfy the risk.
Quote: sootyj @ 6th June 2014, 11:04 PM BSTYou vividly remember inaccurately.
As for disarming the populace, if you think you're living in a dictatorship I doubt I'd be able to disuade of such a notion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Libyan_Civil_War#Before_military_intervention
Do I have to use the expression 'consensual tyranny' again? The fact that most British people enjoy being controlled and told what to do, doesn't make the regime we live under any less oppressive.
Some people for instance would be happy for everyone to be kicked out of their cars and forced onto public transport - taking away any semblance of personal freedom in exchange for 'the greater good'. They even think their actions aren't the least bit draconian because they've seen the government do similar things before and the oppression has become normalised.
Quote: sootyj @ 6th June 2014, 11:07 PM BSTWell exactly. WACO all the violence was instigated by the government on the basis of the weapons they believe the Branch Davidians had, never mind they didn't use most of them.
Too the extent they ended up using the army.Such actions in the UK, would be unconceivable as the government/police could never justfy the risk.
When I said 'horses for courses', I meant you couldn't compare the actions in Nevada with Occupy St. Pauls - however if you want to compare it to the police actions during the Miner's Strike or the Wapping Printer's Strike, then you might be onto something.
Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 6th June 2014, 11:12 PM BSThttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Libyan_Civil_War#Before_military_intervention
Active resistance to the government began in Benghazi on 18 February, after three days of protests. Security forces had killed fourteen protesters the previous day, and a funeral procession for one of those killed passed the Katiba compound, where clashes erupted. Demonstrators threw rocks at security forces, who used live ammunition, killing twenty-four protesters.[1] Two of the policemen who had participated in the clash were caught and hanged by protesters.[2]
do you ever read anything you quote. As in that part of the world it just happens faster,
Then the violent revolt begins.
Quote: lofthouse @ 6th June 2014, 9:15 PM BSTThe English are a pathetic weazley race
The French refused to put up with the disgusting fat rich evil royal f**kers who ruled that country and got shot of the bloody lot of em
We should have done the same
It's utterly pathetic that in the year 2014 we still pay these shiftless set of arseholes to walk around in crowns and jewels like their something bloody special
It's pathetic
The queen can suck my fat hairy cock
>We should have done the same
We did, or rather Cromwell did, and they did chop of the head of the Monarch, but Cromwell's mob weren't much better & eventually the English/British found a royal relative to be King.
The Libyan army wasn't really much better equipped than the rebels, they only had a very few jets and tanks. The US military is... a tad better equipped (and trained). Plus American citizens aren't even allowed full-auto rifles like AK-47s. The rebels still needed NATO to tip the balance by destroying Gaddafi's few tanks and aircraft otherwise they'd have been slaughtered.
Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 6th June 2014, 11:12 PM BSTWhen I said 'horses for courses', I meant you couldn't compare the actions in Nevada with Occupy St. Pauls - however if you want to compare it to the police actions during the Miner's Strike or the Wapping Printer's Strike, then you might be onto something.
Yup in Waco in one incident the death toll was around a hundred, the miners strike over 2 years I think had a death toll of about 5.
At the same time it was a nationwide protest against the government of the day. Waco to this day is by all accounts on paper, a petty disagreement over some misfiled gun licenses.
If you don't get the diference.
Quote: sootyj @ 6th June 2014, 11:16 PM BSTdo you ever read anything you quote. As in that part of the world it just happens faster,
Then the violent revolt begins.
Yeah, you don't capture an entire city from armed police and military with rocks. Even in this article from the Guardian, it describes the rebels using hunting rifles and old Kalashnikovs - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/01/libya-fighting-arms-zintan
Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 6th June 2014, 11:12 PM BSTDo I have to use the expression 'consensual tyranny' again? The fact that most British people enjoy being controlled and told what to do, doesn't make the regime we live under any less oppressive.
Some people for instance would be happy for everyone to be kicked out of their cars and forced onto public transport - taking away any semblance of personal freedom in exchange for 'the greater good'. They even think their actions aren't the least bit draconian because they've seen the government do similar things before and the oppression has become normalised.
That's the description of every government on the earth, man is born free but is everywhere in chains.
That said you do rather overrate the potency of the UK government.
Quote: Stylee TingTing @ 6th June 2014, 11:18 PM BSTFirst of all you extol the virtues of the Monarchy and then you call our country's regime (which is Monarchy-controlled), 'oppressive'.
The Monarchy don't make the laws, even at the recent State Opening of Parliament, the Queen had to sit there and read the words the Tories had written.
Quote: sootyj @ 6th June 2014, 11:23 PM BSTIf you don't get the diference.
I do get the difference, that's what I'm trying to point out. Unless you think the Miner's Strike and Occupy St. Pauls were similar in scale to police operations against protestors? That's why Nevada was different from the Gypsy Farm operation.
2 weeks into the armed revoloution which started 15 february, that article is 1st march. The Libyan government was so paranoid and violent it moved from unarmed protest to civil war in a week.
You really need to start reading your sources.
Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 6th June 2014, 11:27 PM BSTI do get the difference, that's what I'm trying to point out. Unless you think the Miner's Strike and Occupy St. Pauls were similar in scale to police operations against protestors? That's why Nevada was different from the Gypsy Farm operation.
Well quite, but in neither case did the police feel justified in using even tear gas grenades or rubber bullets.
In the riots last year where the police really weren't in control. They didn't even threaten to use plastic bullets till the final days,
Quote: Raymond Terrific @ 6th June 2014, 11:22 PM BSTPlus American citizens aren't even allowed full-auto rifles like AK-47s. The rebels still needed NATO to tip the balance by destroying Gaddafi's few tanks and aircraft otherwise they'd have been slaughtered.
1) Americans in some States are allowed to own full auto rifles - they have to register it and pay a $200 tax and have to give up certain rights with regards to police entering their homes. As we're not even allowed to own a semi-auto centre fire rifle of any description, we have even less of a chance against an oppressive government.
2) The point is that an armed uprising began...and I'll say it again...began because Libyans had their own guns.
Quote: sootyj @ 6th June 2014, 11:29 PM BSTIn the riots last year where the police really weren't in control. They didn't even threaten to use plastic bullets till the final days,
But thanks to CCTV, we were able to put people in jail for six months for stealing a bottle of water from a shop. Our domestic police are under armed, but if the military were involved, then it might have been a different story.
And that's what I'm trying to get at - when I say police state, I don't mean the Bobby on the beat - I'm talking tanks in the street.
Quote: Stylee TingTing @ 6th June 2014, 11:32 PM BSTIf you truly believe that our 'regime' does not have the Monarchy at its head, with their concomitant Praetorian Guard of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Police, Secret Services, the Lords, the Media, the Tories, the Masons, the BNP, UKIP, AFC et al, then you are in serious educational deficit.
I think you're just winding people up.
Hmm, nutty Illuminati Space Lizard man is telling me I have a serious educational deficit?
Franco, Stalin, Chairman Mao - all got rid of their monarchies soon as they got into power and loads of people weren't rounded up, imprisoned, sent to work camps, shot dead and banned from creating opposition parties...or maybe they were. Woo, go freedom. Down with the Queen.